Need help from fellow 190 flyers

[mauser]

Knowing very well that the 190 is not a dogfighter and using it for those desperate low alt base defense sorties is a big no-no, what do you guys do when this situation comes up? I am no where near being experten of course, but I stick to the 190 almost all the time b/c it's my fav. I have books on it, and to help me in tactics I've been reading/re-reading Shaw, and also looked at DocDoom's WB page on flying the 190. But there are just some nights when nothing seems to work. I take off from another field, climb to about 20k and approach the fight. Inevitably, a con shows up in front (usually not a 190), higher than me. There seems to be no choice but to engage if I want to try and stay up there. Usually, this scenario ends with me low and either dead, or having to climb back up again before I can fight; or doing HALO jumping after the con luckily nails me while I'm barrel rolling to avoid the HO. I guess I need some more advice from you dedicated 190 flyers out there, wherever you may be (we seem a little rare tho lately). How do you fly your sorties in the 190?

mauser

[Kieren]

Stick and move. Going for the co-alt bogey is not advisable unless you are really a hot stick. You will be ok for a few moves, but you will inevitably be at a disadvantage if you try to keep the fight too close for too long. Often you will be reduced to the dreaded HO, and if that fails...  

The best situation for the 190 is where you have about 2.5K vert separation. You can drop down, wallop them on the head, and zoom back up. The trick here is the timing, and correctly judging the E state of the low enemy.

If the enemy tries to climb right to you he is asking for it. You can drop right on them and pummel, with plenty of energy for extend/zoom. If the enemy is smart they will level or even dive slightly and wait for you to jump. A well timed pull-up will place them over you, and then you're in trouble. If you hang around long after the fighter has gotten even momentarily above you, it is almost over (for you).

The best use I've seen/had for 190's is furball disruption. Zooming in-and-out of furballs can be a sheer delight, and you usually can escape pretty much unscathed.  

[ibreh]

mauser, the same problems you have let me avoid the 190 here in AH at all costs. i tried it several times in the beginning after itīs appaerance here but i allways died in it without even having a chance to turn the fight. i must say i flew the 190A4 in WB nearly exclusively for about a year, with some times taking a sorties or two in the A8.  But it seems there are two reasons for the bad outcomes here in AH. first (at least i feal so) the flightmodel is very different from that in WB, and second the altitude of fights. if you take a 190 in WB up to an alt of letīs say 17 or max. 20k you can be pretty save that you are above the fight. maybe one 109 will be higher but you can dive away or use barrelroll to let him overshoot. here in ah the fight often "starts" at alts above 20 k. in combination with me beeing not yet used to the flighmodel iīm dead about 30 seconds after the merge.
so in short, i could use a little help from some 190 profs too!!   because i canceled my wb account i HAVE to learn it  
cu all
ibreh

[mauser]

Kieren, that pretty much describes what happens to me when I try and fight co-alt. A couple of passes and then I don't have enough E to do anything more and then I know I'm in trouble. And I don't generally HO anymore except for a brief burst that I just use to spook the con... I found out the hard way that net lag is worst on my side most of the time. So I guess the way it is right now, I will have to run most of the time if I get engaged co-alt. I've gotten so used to the 190 that I won't fly the 109 much at all.. I like the quick roll rate more than being able to turn a little bit better. Breaking up dogfights is the way I get most of my kills.. someone on a fellow Bish's 6 isn't paying attention to who's coming down behind him, or  who he's flying across. So there's got to be more of us who enjoy flying the 190.. how do you fly your fights? A little help should go a long way  

mauser

[Pongo]

mauser.
I love the 190 too.
I looked at your 190 vs other plane stats and it seems that you have problems with all of them.
It looks like I am a bit more successfull than you with it so I will pass on my biggest tip for the wuerger.
Fly with someone. More than some other planes the 190 seems to need support. It might be because the plane is well suited to making an E killing move to get that shot in, which is no big deal if you have back up but its death against a spit or machi other wise.
I noted months ago that 1-1 with a spit is sure death. But 2-2 with spits seems to be a piece of cake. This is probably because with a wingman you are more likely to develop a clean snap shot.  
Some other things I do with the 190.
2 * 20 only.
1/2 gas + drop tank.
Then when you get in combat you are light and manuverable.
If you are going to bounce into a dogfight then bounce out of it after one pass.

Use climbing non stall warning turns. at the top you have great chances to roll in different direction and you can see very well.

In looking at your stats I see that you only fly the 109 and 190. I would suggest that you try some other planes for a few days.
The LW planes are great but more challenging than others. Try the LA5. The cannons shoot like a FW but the low level ability of it is excellent.
Use vertical turns from the deck in the La5 it will give you the feel of them for when you go up in a 190. You need a good snap shot in the FW. Staying on the 6 of a spit or niki is just too challenging. The LA5 is great for develping one. You only have cannons so spray and pray wont help.
A few fights in another plane might help you understand the limitions and strengths of the FW better.
I dont think there are any tricks to the FW.
It is a great plane for using advantage successfully. But a poor one for fighting your way out of disadvantage.
Keep at it.


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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Hollywood]

Ah the FW190  

The FW we have here is not a fast version and is probably the poorest turner so getting low and slow in it is a real no-no if you can avoid it in any way.

That being said there are some tricks you can use.  All of them are based on your fabulous roll rate.  You cannot turn with the other planes so staying in a turn very long in one direction is baaad.  Reversing directions to foul up the bogey is the way to go.  A real mischevious state of mind helps here to find the next way to mess up the other player.  Cultivate an evil laugh to use on a bogey floundering behind you, it helps.

Scissors are a good way to go, so are barrel rolls.  Remember that your plane rolls best to the right, opposite to most planes so get used to shoving your stick to the right.  

You can also play with hoverbatics.  By this I mean get your nose high, about 45 degrees above the horizon with full throttle and wep.  You can get down to about 100mph.  Now you can try out your scissors.  Hopefully the bogey will go in front of you as you are suddenly slow.  Also you are putting energy in the altitude bank and you will soon have some alt to work with.  Another trick I like to use on spits and other non-rollers is to get my nose pointed up and hang on the prop.  If they follow you can use your roll and a little pulling on the stick to make yourself a hard target since their roll is going to be terrible at slow speed.  The 190 has very friendly stall departure characteristics and is fairly spin resistant.  Usually when you stall out your heavy engine will just flip you over and get your nose pointed down to gain speed.  You might have to chop throttle just before stall to avoid torque rolling all over the sky.  This is a dangerous move but it can work.  If the con obliges you by stalling out first you can just flip over and nail him on the way down.  Played this game against a spit for minutes a while back until he ran out of fuel, stalled and augered.

One trick I really like is the flick-and-flee.  It goes like this:  pull up about 30 degrees then roll fast (to the right remember) and flip upside down.  Pull down about 30 degrees below the horizon.  About two or three cycles of this will leave many planes floundering as they slowed down following your pull up, couldn't roll fast enough to stay with you, and don't have your acceleration once they get nose down.  Used this very nicely when I was about to become another Mitsu statistic once.

Apart from the above just some random pull-roll-pull-roll type manovers will often get the con out of plane with you so you can figure out what to do next.

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It's a good day for flying!

    General Chuck Yeager

[danish]

Im still at the steep learning curve in this sim - some good advise above.Especially new for me is the "half fuel + droptank".
Another thing to mention could be never climb into combat area.At the best (if you can pinpoint the action) go in with plenty af steam.That way the risk of getting caught pants down are much less.

danish

[weazel]

Co-alt I dive and WEP to get as much "E" as possible then using trim I pull up for a snap shot at the merge,followed by a throttle chop and wing over reversal at the top of my zoom. If done correctly you can flick the 190 around quickly and not lose too much E. I don`t agree with the 1 vs 1 comment in regards to Spitfires, IMO Spits are easy meat for an aggressive 190 pilot.

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 JG2 "Richthofen"

[juzz]

 

The 190 has very friendly stall departure characteristics and is fairly spin resistant.

Oh boy. If that's true in AH, then it needs some fixin'. Then again, all the planes seem pretty spin-friendly...  

[Lephturn]

One great characteristic of the FW 190 in all it's forms is it's accelleration.  This makes it easy to extend or exit a fight if you use it correctly.  Let's say you get bounced by me in my higher F4U for example:  I'm coming down on your canopy from above, so you execute a hard break turn nose low and accellerate away when I miss.  Now I simply go back up and setup for another pass, only I'll be coming at you from closer to dead 6 since I would have burned up some E in the bounce.  As I come at you level, you'll need to evade, and a roll of some sort is the best move, ending nose-low.  If I try to follow you go for a rolling scissors, which is very tough to follow when an FW does it right, even in a Hog.  Now if I'm smart, I won't follow you, but will go back up and look for another opportunity.  Just as I break off and pull up into the zoom, you want to roll away as I pull up (and am quite blind) and dive away.  If I've pulled much at all for a guns solution, I've slowed down considerably, and the FW will walk away with it's great accelleration.  So in addition to the FW's roll, try to use it's great accelleration when fighting slower-accellerating planes like the 51 and the F4U.

I remember some classic scraps back in my WB days vs. good FW drivers (can't remember who... there are a bunch) where I would be in a P47 and we would go through this scenario over and over.  In Aces High we tent to run out of gas earlier, but back in WB I had a couple of these go on for what seemed like hours, even though it was likely only 20 minutes or so.

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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-13-2000).]

[Hollywood]

Juzz, are you sure about that?  Seems to me the FW's heavy nose should pull it down when lift is lost so that you are diving down and gaining speed again, more so if you have the heavy guns package.  I would think planes with their center of mass further back would be the ones with spin problems such as the p39 with it's rear engine (I've got the right plane there I hope).  The F4U does seem to have a fairly unfriendly spin.

And yes by all means use your acceleration.

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It's a good day for flying!

    General Chuck Yeager

[mauser]

Wow! thanks for all your replies! I really appreciate all the help I can get in improving. One question I want to ask is what distance do you guys start to reverse? Previously, I found that if a con was chasing me, reversing at less than 5.0k would mean that after the merge I would just end up running for it. Then, when I read your posts, I came across "..chopping throttle".. something I had forgotten about. I tried a reversal in the morning, chopping the throttle as I slowed at the top (immelman), and this time I was able to go over the top more quickly and with more control. However, the spit that was chasing me had already given up. Knowing that it depends on what is chasing you and what is it's current E-state, about how far do you wait to reverse in the 190?
btw.. thanx for the tips Pongo.. I remembered you just shot me down the other nite at f2.. I helped Bash nail a low spit, but found myself low, and you suddenly appeared behind me. I knew I was doomed, but just kept rolling. hehehe   you know how that ended  
Hollywd.. haven't seen you on in a while.. I hope I can bump into you this week.. I guess we were on at different times.. thanx for your advice also.. I'll be asking you for more, hope you don't mind  

mauser

[MANDOBLE]

Well, apart of the typical 190A8 moves, like
hammerheads, tailslides, vertical scissors,
etc. Think that 190A8 is, in fact, a good
turner at high speeds (I think it is the
best turner for speeds > 400). For example,
if a Corsair or P51 assault you with alt
advantage, you can try to start a soft dive
with WEP trying to drag the enemy with you
presenting yourself as an easy prey. Once
you reach 450 mph try a hard right turn, if
the Corsair or the P51 try to keep with you
in the turn they will loose the wings  
I usually fly 190A8 or F4U, from my point of
view 190A8 is better plane, but aiming with
it is a hell.

[juzz]

Hollywood; the Fw190 is well known for it's poor stall characteristics. A quote from Eric Brown:

...the stall came suddenly and virtually without warning, the port wing dropping so violently that the aircraft almost inverted itself. In fact, if the German fighter was pulled into a g stall in a tight turn, it would flick out onto the opposite bank and an incipient spin was the inevitable outcome if the pilot did not have his wits about him.

[Mox]

I have one simple question to the FW190 experts.

If I take the 2x2MG, 2x220mm, and 2x30mm configuration, are any of the cannons considerd external mounts like the gondolas?

If they are I'm feeling pretty stupid about right now!  I've always flown the FW190 in this configuration and and I always thought the FW190 handled like toejam in this sim.

Mox
The Wrecking Crew