P-47: We could easily out-turn the Jerry

[tikky]

http://www.p47pilots.com/cfm_ThereIWas.cfm?pageMode=VIEW&storyid=27


We could easily out-turn the Jerry
unknown Ace  Bombing Raid  
Northgrove Squadron  Germany -  

An VIII Fighter Command Ace- I was leading Northgrove Squadron. During the trip over to R/V with the bombers our squadron was flying on the right side of the Group. As we approached the big friends from astern and slightly to the right, we sighted many condensation trails coming from a southerly direction at 90 degrees to the bombers. Upon investigation they turned out to be 9/10 ME 109s and about 15 FW 190s.

At this time the e/a were slightly above us, but they attempted to get up-sun on us. Naturally, since all of our aircraft and all the e/a were pulling very dense condensation trails, there was no element of surprise on either side. The minute we saw them try to get up-sun, we started to climb. The e/a were flying in a group of Vee''s with a tail end man weaving behind the unit. When we began our climb we rapidly climbed above them, and by the time we got into position to bounce we were all about 1,000 feet above them. One of our flights was acting as top cover, approximately 2,000 feet above the whole show at all times. By this time the e/a were in a turn to the left. We bounced and they began to split up. I fired several large deflection shots which were no good. Finally, one e/a straightened out and headed down for the clouds about 500 feet below us. This enabled me to work in a shot from dead astern. I hit this ME 109 in the cockpit. There were the usual flashes, coupled with a fairly large flash and a dense cloud of black smoke. The ship fell off, belching smoke, and headed for the cloud in an extremely erratic manner.

By this time the other two flights were in the scrap. I looked over the left side of my ship in time to see Lt. Reed shoot down an ME 109 which exploded. We were all in the same turning circle, but we found that we could easily out-turn and out-run the Jerry. In fact, the whole enemy force was definitely panicky and not aggressive. After a short while the e/a all disappeared into the clouds and we again set course to pick up the bombers. We spotted another ME 109, but were only able to make an ineffective pass at it because it rolled into the layer of clouds.

Shortly after the last engagement, we were given a recall sign by the Group CO. We turned and in the turn, my engine quit. I was forced to drop down. My wingman, Lt. Westfall, started down with me. By the time we reached 16,000 feet, I spotted a flight of six ME 109s above me and off to my left. They came from the rear, passed over in front of me, and then started a turn to the left. I called to Lt. Westfall to climb back into the clouds, but before he could get there, the e/a had passed over me again, and had started to attack him. Northgrove Red flight then came into play. This flight, led by Lt. Egan, bounced the e/a and, after a short turning engagement, forced the e/a to break off and hit the deck. At the conclusion of these engagements we all started out.

I found myself at 12,00 feet. However, I managed to pick up another P-47 from a different group. My return trip was uneventful insofar as enemy aircraft were concerned.

I would again like to stress the fact that, even though 50% of the squadron was having supercharger regulator trouble, we were still able to out-perform all the enemy aircraft which we encountered.

lol no wonder my 109s flip-flop even when i see p-47:rolleyes:

[Widewing]

Tikky, at the altitudes required to engage Heavy Bombers in the ETO/MTO, the P-47s held significant performance advantages over the Luftwaffe fighters.

The P-47s typically didn't reach their best speed until 32,000 ft. Up there, they out-climbed, out-turned and easily out-ran the 190A and 109G-6 subtypes they generally encountered. Even later German fighters, such as the 190D-9 and 109G-10 fell short in performance up that high. Even after the P-51 appeared, it still lacked the high alt performance of the Jugs, especially the late model Jugs (P-47M and in the PTO, the P-47N). Mustangs performed better at medium altitudes (15k to 25k). Down here the Jugs were not nearly as effective and the 109s and 190s could and often did give them a very difficult time.

P-47s owned the thin, cold skies over Europe. And why not? It was designed and engineered specifically for that environment.

I read where one Luftwaffe pilot stated that no matter how high they climbed in their 109s, they always found P-47s higher. Some P-47s groups flew high cover up as high as 37,000 feet!! I'm not sure a combat loaded 190A could even get that high and 109s were surely out of breath (and horsepower).

My regards,

Widewing

[Meyer]

Hmmm not sure if the ceiling of the P47 was higher than any 109 with 605D or AS engine.

[bunch]

Probably similarly in the low 40,000s

[mora]

How about P-38? I've climbed to 52,000ft in our P-38 with bombs and rockets.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by mora
How about P-38? I've climbed to 52,000ft in our P-38 with bombs and rockets.

I'm sure it's because of the super flaps..

Widewing is right abouyt the P47 though, I would not like to be in a 190A at 30k with P47s all about...

[Siaf__csf]

So we get to the conclusion that the P-47 is completely in the wrong enviroment on AH playfield.

Nobody ever fights at realistic altitudes in MA. Well except the t&b people.

I found it extremely hard to survive in the P47-d30 when I used to fly MA. Possible, yes, but hard. That's why it was also fun and challenging.

[mora]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm sure it's because of the super flaps..

Might very well be since I forgot it on autoclimb.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Widewing
Tikky, at the altitudes required to engage Heavy Bombers in the ETO/MTO, the P-47s held significant performance advantages over the Luftwaffe fighters.

The P-47s typically didn't reach their best speed until 32,000 ft. Up there, they out-climbed, out-turned and easily out-ran the 190A and 109G-6 subtypes they generally encountered. Even later German fighters, such as the 190D-9 and 109G-10 fell short in performance up that high.

I think you would want to learn more about the specifics of these. While the 190A was definitely, and the 109G-6 was less so outclassed in speed and altitude, this certainly isn`t true for later models. BTW, even the above statement is only true after the horsepower was increased on the P-47 and paddle blade props were added. afaik, and correct me if i am wrong, this didn`t happen until late `43. W/o those, the 109Gs performance was even superior at speed at all inc. high altitudes to the p47 - I shouldn`t even mention the dimensional difference in ROC.

[JB73]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
...While the 190A was definitely, and the 109G-6 was less so outclassed in speed and altitude, this certainly isn`t true for later models.

i dont know about real life, but in AH take a 190G10 clean with no gondolas, 20mm in the nose, 100% and a drop tank.

once you get to 32,000 try and level off, and try an turn on auto pilot level.

without constant WEP you will not maintain that alt, and with the WEP on it will flip the plane over with the engine torque. (this is after dropping the DT once it is empty)


if you manage to get to 35,000 you will not be able to do any manuever without losing at least 5k in alt.



the 190 D in AH is similar, though the eng togque does not flip the plane as bad. it can get to 38K+ but it can't do much up there, even a moderate turn you lose 2000/min in alt.

[GRUNHERZ]

The funny thing in AH is that the P47 is incredibly manouverable and stable on the deck to high alt. It really doesnt seem to suffer from its heft at all.

[CMC Airboss]

We were all in the same turning circle, but we found that we could easily out-turn and out-run the Jerry. In fact, the whole enemy force was definitely panicky and not aggressive.

This is more a testament to pilot quality rather than aircraft ability.  Had the 109 drivers not panicked and acted aggressively, the P-47's would likely have had a more difficult time during the fight.

MiG

[VWE]

The funny thing in AH is that the P47 is incredibly manouverable and stable on the deck to high alt. It really doesnt seem to suffer from its heft at all.

I don't find it funny at all how unrealistic the Jug turns and maneuvers on the deck... its a joke that you can knife fight in it that low.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
I think you would want to learn more about the specifics of these. While the 190A was definitely, and the 109G-6 was less so outclassed in speed and altitude, this certainly isn`t true for later models. BTW, even the above statement is only true after the horsepower was increased on the P-47 and paddle blade props were added. afaik, and correct me if i am wrong, this didn`t happen until late `43. W/o those, the 109Gs performance was even superior at speed at all inc. high altitudes to the p47 - I shouldn`t even mention the dimensional difference in ROC.

P-47C-5-RE, circa April of 1943: 433 mph at 30,000 feet. It's a whole lot faster than what the Luftwaffe had to oppose it at the time. Toothpick prop too....

Check data chart 30 in Dean's America's Hundred Thousand, page 278.

My regards,

Widewing

[Meyer]

Originally posted by Widewing
P-47C-5-RE, circa April of 1943: 433 mph at 30,000 feet. It's a whole lot faster than what the Luftwaffe had to oppose it at the time.

 

I think the 109's with GM1 could fly faster than that.