P-38G: Twin engined Spitfire!

[Kweassa]

It's circumstantial, Dan.

 I've had basically the same experience with the P-38G, but only this time, I was the Ki-84. The P-38G started out a little bit higher, but the situation after the first merge was about equal. After a few jabs at each other the fight quickly developed into a rolling scissors, which the P-38 gained the upperhand at the initial stages.

 It went into the familiar "wing-over" move, which usually the USAAF planes does better than any other plane in AH - pitch up high, and then engage max flaps possible, and 'c o c k' the nose down very quickly and start a loop fight.

 Since most USAAF planes have combat flaps, it can finish that move quicker than any other plane in the set.

 Once an enemy plane tries to follow that move, it inevitably enters a 'sluggy' phase which it is also trying to tilt the nose down to follow the US plane, but can't do so. The P-38 does it even faster than others, because it's got no torque to manage during the nose-down process(incidentally, this also usually the point most P-38 pilots experience the accelerated stall, when they push the limits too far).

 By the time the following enemy plane gets his nose down and starts moving downwards, the P-38 already made the bottom of the loop and is on its way back up. In about one~two vertical circles, the P-38 will 'outturn' the enemy plane decisively.

 I'm pretty much familiar with that since most good US plane pilots use it to maximum efficiency. Therefore, I thought if I could make it through the first 'wing-over' without getting shot at I'd win - and things did turn out that way. Once I made it through that critical point, my own superior two-stage fowlers on the Ki-84 kicked into action and after that, everything was a breeze.

 Eventually the P-38 gave up the vertical fight and tried to run away - except the Ki-84 is much faster than the P-38G. No thanks to my superiorly inferior gunnery, I failed to shoot him down through his desperate scissors and rolls, which I had no problem whatsoever following.

 He even tried a super-slow speed turn, probably near 90mph or so, with multiple stages of flaps engaged. Piece of cake - once the Ki-84 flaps are out, the plane literally turns itself on a dime without much of pilot input on the stick. About 2 more seconds was all I needed until I finally had a decisive gun solution at 150 yards distance, when out of the blue an enemy plane came by and shot my tail off.

 Granted, the P-38 pilot could have been mediocre, but I'm a mediocre guy myself. If specs mean anything, everything is in favor of the Ki-84 when compared to a P-38. The only thing the P-38 does better is have better guns and run away faster - which the latter applies to only the PJ. The PL and the Ki-84 has same top speed at deck.

 Ofcourse, there is a small but very vulnerable speed range for the Ki-84, about 50mph speed margin before the flaps can be popped out - this is where the Ki is the most sluggish, unresponsive, and unstable. No doubt, an experienced P-38 pilot can fully exploit this weakness.

 But given equal conditions, when comparing the strengths and weaknesses of each of those two planes the Ki-84 holds most of the better cards, at least, as a pure 1vs1 dog fighter. Everything the P-38 can do, the Ki-84 can do it better.

[SlapShot]

So basically, once you see a P-38 within 1k distance behind you and closing, you're too late to do anything.

WRONG !!! ... in so many ways.

[dedalos]

You do not want to engage a fast or slow KI84 in a 38 (assuming both are fast or both are slow).  You want them around 150 to 200.  If you slow down enough for the KI84 to deploy flaps, it will run circles inside a SpitV (I think around 120).

[dedalos]

Originally posted by SlapShot
So basically, once you see a P-38 within 1k distance behind you and closing, you're too late to do anything.

WRONG !!! ... in so many ways.

Isn't that when the Spit turns around and kills you, or is that at D800?

[victor]

Originally posted by java45
This is a game not Real Life, same as Bombers that can turnfight ( which btw wasnt possible either )

End of simple explanation

 I READ IN A BOOK THAT THE KI-67 bomber could outturn most single seat fighters,believe the book was WW2 A/C ILLUSTRATED written by SALAMANDER publishing

VIC

[java45]

Originally posted by MadBirdCZ
The fact that in real life no bomber pilot ever tried to turnfight does not mean it is impossible... It is just plain stupid... But possible...

Well in fact ALL things are possible!!! But 3 friends of mine who flew waist gun in aforementioned aircraft have assured me that one of those planes turnfighting is aboutas close to immposible as youcan get.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Given more or less equal circumstances, a Spit5 or a N1K2, Ki-84-Ia will eat a P-38 alive in a slow speed fight - whatever version it is. The Ki-84-Ia, in particular, once its own superior set of fowlers extend, can do anything a P-38 can, and do it much better.

 The problem with evading a P-38 is that the P-38 is more than capable of following a turn long enough to gain a firing solution once it grabs onto a certain advantage. That's where its natural advantages in torque-less maneuvering kicks in.

 For instance, if a P-38G grabs hold of a Spit5 from an E-advantaged position it can turn about one full circle with it with gun solution. It means the P-38 is capable of pulling more than enough lead to get a shot in for more than a full circle. Only when the fight becomes much longer, over two circles, and the speeds go down to 100mph+/- levels, will the Spit5 start gain ground in the turn fight and manage to decisively outturn P-38s if it continues(but this is usually the point where the P-38L or a J  levels out and just runs away).

 Ofcourse, rarely does the fight take that long in most cases - a half circle or so and the grouped .50s and the single Hizooka usually makes short of the target.

 Ofcourse, above analysis takes as a premise that most P-38s also fly higher than anything else around, so rarely would you see a successful P-38 pilot ever engage anything at co-alt, slow speed, at fairly equal starting position. No matter the big words and chest-thumping, basically, a P-38 will come from above you, and then latch on to you, denying you an equal chance in the merge. (But of course, securing the initial advantage is really the basic of all basics in ACM and that's nothing to be criticized, or be ashamed of, for both sides).

 But that also means that if for any chance a SpitV or a N1K2 or a Ki-84-Ia finds a P-38 that doesn't have enough speed to run away from it, the tables will be pretty much easily turned if the particular Spit, N1K, Ki-84 pilot is a decent one. Anything the P-38 can do at a disadvantaged position, these planes can follow easily.. unless the pilot is inexperienced and doesn't know much about throttle control, rudder input, or flaps.

 So basically, once you see a P-38 within 1k distance behind you and closing, you're too late to do anything. All you can hope is do whatever you can and hope the P-38 pilot sucks in gunnery, so you can turn long enough for your natural advantage in turning starts to show off. However in most cases, a half a turn and you'll probably be in flames or missing a wing.

 Therefore, if somebody claims that the P-38 still matches the Spits, N1K2s, or Ki-84s in maneuvering, without the above described situation in place, that's actually the same thing as admitting the FM is entirely wrong, because there's no way a 10 thousand pound plane can match a smaller plane with better powerloading and lower wingloading toe-to-toe in every bit of slow speed maneuvering - with or without flaps.

It's funny how guys that have probably less than a few P-38 stick hours and have no idea how it really performs say, "The P-38 can do this...or...The P-38 can't do that" when you really have no clue what the P-38 is capable of in here.

ack-ack

[Kweassa]

Surely hours and hours of being on the receiving end and trying to figure out how a 10 thousand pound, high wing-loaded plane can almost match smaller planes with much more 'maneuver-friendly' specs has gotta count for something, no?

 I'm really sorry if I don't submit to your simple logic of "oh I fly it a lot so only I should be able to comment on that plane". I didn't realize observing, analyzing, commenting processes should only be done one-way.  *snicker*  

 So, anything you'd actually like to point out? My "you are a layman since you don't fly my plane, and thus you aren't qualified to talk about it"-oriented ears are all yours for listening.

[Karnak]

Weights:

P-38:

Empty:
   P-38G-1-LO: 12,200 lbs.
   P-38J-25-LO: 12,780 lbs.
Loaded:
   P-38G-1-LO: 15,800 lbs.
   P-38J-25-LO: 17,500 lbs.
Maximum:
   P-38G-1-LO: 19,800 lbs.
   P-38J-25-LO: 21,600 lbs.

Ki-84:
Empty:
5,864 lbs.
Maximum:
8,576 lbs.

N1K2-J:
Empty:
5,858 lbs.
Maximum:
10,714 lbs.

Spitfire:

Empty:
    Mk. I: 4,810 lbs.
    Mk. IX: 5,610 lbs.
    Mk. XIV: 6,700 lbs.
Loaded:
    Mk. I: 5,784 lbs.
    Mk. IX: 9,500 lbs.
    Mk. XIV: 10,280 lbs.

[Kweassa]

Once again I stand corrected.

 I'll rephrase my sentence above with the word "fifteen thousand" instead of 10.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Surely hours and hours of being on the receiving end and trying to figure out how a 10 thousand pound, high wing-loaded plane can almost match smaller planes with much more 'maneuver-friendly' specs has gotta count for something, no?

 I'm really sorry if I don't submit to your simple logic of "oh I fly it a lot so only I should be able to comment on that plane". I didn't realize observing, analyzing, commenting processes should only be done one-way.  *snicker*  

 So, anything you'd actually like to point out? My "you are a layman since you don't fly my plane, and thus you aren't qualified to talk about it"-oriented ears are all yours for listening.

Lets start here ...

For instance, if a P-38G grabs hold of a Spit5 from an E-advantaged position it can turn about one full circle with it with gun solution. It means the P-38 is capable of pulling more than enough lead to get a shot in for more than a full circle. Only when the fight becomes much longer, over two circles, and the speeds go down to 100mph+/- levels, will the Spit5 start gain ground in the turn fight and manage to decisively outturn P-38s if it continues(but this is usually the point where the P-38L or a J levels out and just runs away).

If the P-38 has E-advantage, the Spit V simply needs to pull into a turn or enter a loop just on the edge of backout, and the P-38 will not be able to follow and gain a guns solution. If the Spit pilot notices that the P-38 is still in pursuit, simply make another tight turn and the P-38 will go farther out of phase. Add a barrel roll into the mix and the P-38 should not follow ... if it does, then it just entered the danger zone.

If they enter a "death circle" and the Spit V gets flaps out, it will turn inside the P-38 before two laps are completed.

Ofcourse, above analysis takes as a premise that most P-38s also fly higher than anything else around, so rarely would you see a successful P-38 pilot ever engage anything at co-alt, slow speed, at fairly equal starting position.

I have a pretty good success rate in the P-38 and that is not how I fly it at all. I feel as comfortable in that plane wether it is slow or fast - high or low. When I fly it, it's the speed at the time of engagement that determines how I will fight it ... aggresively or defensively ... either way ... its a dangerous plane.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
It actually has around 2500HP, applied by two props, but you can ignore that if you like.

I tried very consciously to ignore that and Ack-Ack killed my 190

[Kweassa]

If the P-38 has E-advantage, the Spit V simply needs to pull into a turn or enter a loop just on the edge of backout, and the P-38 will not be able to follow and gain a guns solution.

 The situation I was describing was one where the P-38 already 'latched on' to the Spit with E advantage within 400~800yards, dancing around a bit with high yoyos, some lag pursuits, etc etc. As long as the P-38 has enough E advantage in the first place to utilize the clever pursuit techniques, no plane can 'evade' it by just turning hard. Only something like a Zeke or a Hurri can evade their gun solution with just turns.

When I fly it, it's the speed at the time of engagement that determines how I will fight it ... aggresively or defensively ... either way ... its a dangerous plane.

 Yup. But some planes can be more dangerous. At least, according to the specs, some planes are easier to be more dangerous in.

[Morpheus]

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Kweassa
The situation I was describing was one where the P-38 already 'latched on' to the Spit with E advantage within 400~800yards, dancing around a bit with high yoyos, some lag pursuits, etc etc. As long as the P-38 has enough E advantage in the first place to utilize the clever pursuit techniques, no plane can 'evade' it by just turning hard. Only something like a Zeke or a Hurri can evade their gun solution with just turns.




 Yup. But some planes can be more dangerous. At least, according to the specs, some planes are easier to be more dangerous in.

Why do I even bother ... geesh !!!

This is what you said ...

For instance, if a P-38G grabs hold of a Spit5 from an E-advantaged position it can turn about one full circle with it with gun solution.

and I responded to just that.

Now you go further to qualify the scenario ...

The situation I was describing was one where the P-38 already 'latched on' to the Spit with E advantage within 400~800yards, dancing around a bit with high yoyos, some lag pursuits, etc etc.

Your like a kid who engages in a simple game of dodgeball and everytime you get hit, you change the rules.

"Oh well ... I meant that you have to bounce it off a tree and hit me in the left ear in order to get me out." .. "I'm still in."

If a P-38 comes in behind my Spit V with an E-advantage and decides to "dance around a bit with high yoyos, some lag pursuits, etc etc" has just lost his advantage and had better high-tail it out of there ... else his dance card will be punched for sure.

Conversly ... If I am in the P-38 I will be aggressive with the Spit ... not dance around ... and know just when to stop the aggresiveness and extend ... regroup and try again. Dance around a Spit V and your asking for trouble.