Pilot wounds and 'hit boxes'

[mechanic]

ok, i know you're all gunna say: here goes batfink with his stupid threads about gameplay again (dont you dare furball... ) but.....


Someone mentioned about hit boxes and that sort of thing and i wondered if you (HiTech) could explain how the game decides you are pilot wounded IE: is it a hit box on the glass, etc.

and if it is a hit box, then how big is it. does it relate to an average human male or is it much bigger/smaller?

and finally, and the cheekiest question of the three, would it be possible in the next few patches to model just one single 'instrument hit box' for our gaming pleasure?

maybe just the oil gauge or compass, ya know like just a smashed hole with broken glass an' that.



would be really awesome to have another variable other than;

A: hole in window, no damge

B: pilot wound/pilot kill


really would be a great improvement to cockpit damage in my opinion.

any answers to these questions would be much appreciated

thank you sir.

S!

batfink


edit: oh yeah, and it seems strange that 99% of bullet hit on my canopy have only and entry hole, yet no damage to intruments or panels. not that this matters much.

[Waffle]

Originally posted by mechanic
and if it is a hit box, then how big is it. does it relate to an average human male or is it much bigger/smaller?

 

The hit box for the average male is around 6 1/2 inches.....

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

From everything I've read, there's no such thing as a hit box or a hit bubble. How pilot wounds are modeled is of great interest to me though. I'd really like to see it explained.

[Kweassa]

My opinion is that the lack of a specific 'depiction' of how things happen leads to confusion or misconception. I've been monitoring how cockpit damages happen in various occasions, and it seems how the pilot was wounded is always shrouded in certain depths of confusion in most cases.

 For instance, the game currently uses only three 'damage sounds' to depict what was hit where. There's;

1) 7.7mm~.50, 'hit sound'
2) cannon 'hit sound'
3) 'damaged' sound

 Now, when a certain bullet hits and drills the windshield, it uses the same 'damaged' sound as any other part - there's no way to tell if a bullet hit the windshield and that cracked it, or some other reason caused it. (nearby flak burst, collision, internal ricochet after being hit.. etc etc)

 Another fact is that the damage depiction inside the cockpit is minimal. In certain cases where the pilot was wounded, it is easy to tell how the damage was inflicted, since you can at least approximately track the path the bullet entered, by looking at the bullet hole in the windshield.

 However, in those other occasions such as;

* a bullet hit from underneath the plane and cleaved through the seat
* a bullet hit from sides and penetrated the side of the cockpit
* frontal attacks from HOs or GV pintle guns

 etc etc.. there's not sufficient damage depiction to track just how or where the pilot was hit.

 The final problem is the question; how is pilot damage dealt in the first place? I'm pretty sure HTC uses a 'pilot figure' as a damage model part, and a bullet hit to it will cause damage. But what if the bullet hits legs? arms? shoulder? head? The information on different levels of damage according to where the pilot was hit would be nifty to track out just how the bullet entered the cockpit - except we don't have this info, and however the pilot was damaged, it is always the same black outs.

 

 What if there was internal damage depiction? For instance, if a plane without a frontal engine block such as the P-38 or a Mossie gets hit while ground attacking, if the bullet came from forward, it would have had to puncture through the dashboard to hit the pilot. There would be some instrument that was damaged - and by this, we could figure out just what caused pilot damaged.

 What if there was differing levels and symptoms of pilot damage? If your control input becomes sluggish or weak while no flight surfaces are damaged(aileron, elev. etc.. ), one might guess the pilot was hit on the arm, and would only use one arm, and this would slow down input in high-G or high speed maneuvers - in this case one would also be able to figure out where the bullets hit and how.

 All in all, its the lack of depiction which makes suspicious that something might be strange. If more detail and depiction was put into the game, it would turn out that nothing is really wrong with the game. At least, that's my opinion.

[Karnak]

kweassa,

Actually there are four.  The .303/7.7mm/7.92mm and .50/12.7mm/13mm have separate hit sounds.  It was always a quick way to tell if the Spit was Mk V or Mk IX.

[Kweassa]

I stand corrected - can never tell the 'pi-pings' of 7.7mms and 'piiings' of .50s. The 20mm 'thunks' I can tell, but..

[Jackal1]

Here goes Batfink with.............errrr....... .yea....it`d be kind of interesting to me also to know this.
Only thing that worries me is I am still in recovery from the last time HT explained something like this. I mean all them formulas and stuff. I`m still arguing that pie are round, not square.


Heehee. Jusr ealized I had it Barfink instead of Batfink.

[WilldCrd]

Its a seeeecret on how its all modeled
all need to know and none of you NEED to know

[mechanic]

Barfink would be a great name!


so HT, whats the verdict sir?

[AKFokerFoder+]

Excellent topic Batfink

I most of my reading of arial combat is from WW1.

The primary target of most pilots was the pilot of the other plane.

No one aimed at the wings or tail.  The exception to that being guys like the Red Baron, who, after killing the crew of a 2 seater, would then take careful aim at the wingstruts of the bogey, and shoot them out to cause the plane to crash quicker.  Apparently some of the 2 seaters were stable enough to fly back over their lines even though the crew was dead.  This gave the Red Baron an unfortunate reputation of being cold blooded.  How shooting the wing struts of a plane whose crew you had just killed is more blood thirsty than the joe pilot who only kills the crew is beyond me.

I think that in WW2 there was also an empasis on killing the other pilot rather than shooting out a wing. Other more knowlegeable WW2 buffs may be able to correct or enlighten us on this subject.  Certainly the big, non rifle caliber rounds of the WW2 planes could do severe structural damage, especially the cannons.

I know that the German cannons could damage the wings of buffs by opening large holes, and then the wind would rip the large holes into massive rips of the aluminum skin.

But on a fighter to fighter basis, I would still think that the pilot, center fuel and engine would be my primary targets.

In AH, I just spray the area ahead of the bogey with cannon fire, and let him run into it.  That, or I just aim for the bottom of a running bogey, and slowly bring my fire up until I see hit sprites, then stop shooting, as by the time you see hit sprites, you are already shooting to high.  I really suck at shooting, so I just spray and let God sort it out

[mechanic]

yeah, Red Baron was a master for sure. but how would he have done in the higher spec rides of 39-45?

would be the most usefull and immersive addition to the game to incorporate instrument damage.


please consider this

thanks


bat

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
From everything I've read, there's no such thing as a hit box or a hit bubble. How pilot wounds are modeled is of great interest to me though. I'd really like to see it explained.

I think he got the "hit box" term from the thread on puffy ack where HT explained how it targets planes.  As to whether or not there is a "hit bubble" I have no idea and I suppose it would be nice to have that cleared up as well for the gunnery threads.  

I'd also really like to know about the pilot wound thing.  Not just that though, but all hits in general.  Is any hit to the front of the plane randomized?  Or do the engine compartment and cockpit have separate target areas for hits to be modelled in?  How far is it broken down as far as separate target areas within a plane?  And is any hit within those "areas" randomized?  Just how specific is the shot placement vs damage done to the plane and/or pilot?  

Thanks!

[mechanic]

that is what i meant by hit boxes SA2.

i am assuming that there is a certain area on the canopy that if hit by bullets, a pilot wound is recieved


this would mean that even if the round came in at an odd angle and wasnt on trajectory for the pilot, he would still recieve the wound as the 'hit box' was damaged.

if this is not the case then wuhoo! great.

but if this is the case, as i suspect (with no real substance to back up this assumption) then a pilot wound is not always a 'fair' way to die.


would be great to have some kind of guidline for how damage is modeled.



saying this the game is totaly awesome and i couldn't really say I'd play less or more depending on the answer.


S!

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Kweassa
What if there was internal damage depiction? For instance, if a plane without a frontal engine block such as the P-38 or a Mossie gets hit while ground attacking, if the bullet came from forward, it would have had to puncture through the dashboard to hit the pilot. There would be some instrument that was damaged - and by this, we could figure out just what caused pilot damaged.

Just as a side note, in the p38 here is what a bullet has to penetrate through in the nose to get to the cockpit enclosure.


Good topic, I also would like to hear more details about this model, and see bullet strikes possible on the instrument panel.

[gofaster]

Yeah, it would be awesome if the pilot could get decapitated by a 20mm and then we could see his head rolling around in the cockpit!

I always liked that scene in "Midway" where Heston's son bursts into flames and has to grab a fire extinguisher to put himself out and the whole time he's screaming and his skin is cracking and breaking like carmelized apple crisp.  I think all F4F, FM2, and F6F pilots should burst into flames when the cockpit gets hit.  That would be awesome!