Author Topic: Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign  (Read 497 times)

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« on: March 09, 2005, 08:49:27 PM »
Just got sent a link to the following report just released by freedom house:

NEW REPORT ON SAUDI GOVERNMENT PUBLICATIONS IN U.S.

WASHINGTON, DC, January 28, 2005- Freedom House’s Center for Religious Freedom released today a new report exposing the dissemination of hate propaganda in America by the government of Saudi Arabia.

The 89-page report, “Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Invade American Mosques,” is based on a year-long study of over two hundred original documents, all disseminated, published or otherwise generated by the government of Saudi Arabia and collected from more than a dozen mosques in the United States.

Full Report Available Here

Among the key findings of the report:

· Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations;

· The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic;

· The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against the infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam. Any other reason for lingering among the unbelievers in their lands is illegitimate, and unless a Muslim leaves as quickly as possible, he or she is not a true Muslim and so too must be condemned. For example, a document in the collection for the “Immigrant Muslim” bears the words “Greetings from the Cultural Attache in Washington, D.C.” of the Embassy of Saudi Arabia, and is published by the government of Saudi Arabia. In an authoritative religious voice, it gives detailed instructions on how to “hate” the Christian and Jew: Never greet them first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never imitate the infidel. Do not become a naturalized citizen of the United States. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel;

· One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. In these documents, other Muslims, especially those who advocate tolerance, are condemned as infidels. The opening fatwa in one Saudi embassy-distributed book, published by the Saudi Air Force, responds to a question about a Muslim preacher in a European mosque who taught that it is not right to condemn Jews and Christians as infidels. The Saudi state cleric’s reply rebukes the Muslim cleric: “He who casts doubts about their infidelity leaves no doubt about his.” Since, under Saudi law, “apostates” from Islam can be sentenced to death, this is an implied death threat against the tolerant Muslim imam, as well as an incitement to vigilante violence;

· Sufi and Shiite Muslims are viciously condemned;

· For a Muslim who fails to uphold the Saudi Wahhabi sect’s sexual mores (i.e. through homosexual activity or heterosexual activity outside of marriage), the edicts published by the Saudi government’s Ministry of Islamic Affairs, and found in American mosques advise, “it would be lawful for Muslims to spill his blood and to take his money;”

· Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs explicitly asserts, they “should be killed;”

· Saudi textbooks and other publications in the collection, propagate a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel;

· Regarding women, the Saudi publications instruct that they should be veiled, segregated from men and barred from certain employment and roles;

The report states: “While the government of Saudi Arabia claims to be ‘updating’ or reforming its textbooks and study materials within the Kingdom, its publications propagating an ideology of hatred remain plentiful in some prominent American mosques and Islamic centers, and continue to be a principal resource available to students of Islam within the United States.”
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2005, 04:26:38 PM »
Hmmm... Saudis hate America? I can't believe it. After all, everyone knows that the 911 attacks were carried out by Iraqis. The Saudis have always been benevolent friends of the U.S.
sand

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6143
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2005, 04:55:26 PM »
According to that report wouldnt the Saudi government be infidels for selling oil to the infidels?
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2005, 05:34:11 PM »
Another reason why religion should be kept away from politic and government.

Religious nutcases are a real threat to the peace all over the world.

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6143
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2005, 05:37:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
Another reason why religion should be kept away from politic and government.

Religious nutcases are a real threat to the peace all over the world.


No....nutcases are a real threat to peace all over the world. Matters not if their views are based on religion or something else.....nutcases are nutcases imo.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2005, 12:48:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
Another reason why religion should be kept away from politic and government.

Religious nutcases are a real threat to the peace all over the world.


Staga,

Not to be argumentative, but the highest deathtolls to date have actually been produced by irreligious/anti-theistic governments such as Soviet Russia and Khmer Rouge Cambodia. Historically,  its not religion or irreligion in government that really gets the mega-death counter ticking over, but totalitarianism. Unfortunately, as Al Zarqawi made clear in his pre-election press-release and as the report evidences via extensive quotes, Wahabbi Islam (and several of the other schools) is devoted to the idea of the establishment of the Dar-el-Islam worldwide ruled by Caliphate. Thus it is militantly opposed not only to all other religions, but also to any form of Democratic government.

The introduction to the report is particularly informative as it details the "Faustian Bargain" the Saudis made with the Wahabbis in order to stay in power. I.E. we will use a portion of our petro-chemical fortune to bankroll the spread of Wahabbi Islam worldwide (and thereby sponsor universal Jihad). Saddam's administration, on the other hand, didn't so much bankroll the spread of the ideology underlying the Jihad, as the Jihadists themselves both in order to divert attention internally (the west and Israel are your enemies not me) and as a foriegn policy tool. Syria has followed essentially the same policy.

A good basic introduction to the concept of Caliphate, Islamic politics, and the core opposition of Islam to democracy can be had from Mortimer's (now somewhat out of date) "Faith and Power"

Or alternatively we can smash it all flat and simply revert to jingoism.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2005, 12:58:21 AM »
All right; religious nutcases aren't really a threat.


Err....

Offline Raider179

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2005, 01:19:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Staga,

Not to be argumentative, but the highest deathtolls to date have actually been produced by irreligious/anti-theistic governments such as Soviet Russia and Khmer Rouge Cambodia. Historically,  its not religion or irreligion in government that really gets the mega-death counter ticking over, but totalitarianism.

Unfortunately, as Al Zarqawi made clear in his pre-election press-release and as the report evidences via extensive quotes, Wahabbi Islam (and several of the other schools) is devoted to the idea of the establishment of the Dar-el-Islam worldwide ruled by Caliphate. Thus it is militantly opposed not only to all other religions, but also to any form of Democratic government.


- SEAGOON


You forgot the inquistion, the crusades, Bosnia, Kosovo, Uganda

I however agree with your 2nd statement. Islamic extremists believe that any form of government that does not use Islamic Law as its basis is fundamentally flawed and goes against everything they believe.

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2005, 04:43:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
You forgot the inquistion, the crusades, Bosnia, Kosovo, Uganda

I however agree with your 2nd statement. Islamic extremists believe that any form of government that does not use Islamic Law as its basis is fundamentally flawed and goes against everything they believe.


Hi Raider,

No, actually I didn't. For the sake of argument, let's talk straight death-tolls, comparing the examples you give to just a few of those produced by Atheistic/Utopian regimes:

Death Tolls (murders, executions, forced famines)
Mao: 48 Million
Stalin: 20 Million
Khmer Rouge: 1.5 Million

Against that we have the Inquisition and the Crusades, and lets go with the most wildly inflated figures on record from the rabidly anti-Christian rationalists manual:
Spanish Inquisition (1400s-1834): 35,534
Crusades (1095-1291): 5 Million

Bosnia, Kosovo, and Uganda were all Ethnic/Tribal wars as was Rwanda and not specifically religious. Computing those numbers would be difficult given that for instance Amin (an Animist) had many Christians put to death, but many of them died because of their tribal affiliation and not specifically because of their Christianity. Also in the Balkans do we count the Muslims killed by Muslims in the Death Tolls, Catholics killed by Russian Orthodox and so on?

Additionally,  how do we factor in the fact that both Communism and Islam advocate war as a means of spreading their ideaology while Christianity forbids it? The issue is, as I said, Totalitarianism whether it be Islamic or Communist (Christianity, particularly Protestant Christianity has always tended towards producing democracies - for instance the Swiss Cantons, the Dutch Republic, The British Constitutional Monarchy, etc.) I know there is a natural desire to have Christianity produce similar death tolls in order to prove an "all religions bad - atheism good" argument, but it just isn't born out historically.

Because of the evil of mens hearts monocracy produces hideous death tolls wherever it is instituted by mortal men.
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2005, 04:54:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Spanish Inquisition (1400s-1834): 35,534


Where did you get that estimate?
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Stringer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1610
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2005, 04:55:33 PM »
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Offline Seagoon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2396
      • http://www.providencepca.com
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2005, 05:04:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Where did you get that estimate?


M.D. Aletheia's Rationalists Manual (1897). Aletheia's figures are acknowledged by most credible historians to be much too high, but I wanted to use a source who hated Christianity and wouldn't have cut it any breaks in his estimates.

Most people when they conceive of the Inquisition think of mass round-ups and indiscriminate burnings leading to a huge death toll. However the objective of the Inquisition was to produce a forced conversion to Roman Catholicism, and often the threat of torture, imprisonment, or death was sufficient to do so. For instance, the majority of Spanish Muslims brought before the Inquisition "converted" rather than being killed. The majority of the burnt were Protestants and Jews who doggedly refused to recant and were handed over to the state as traitors to be executed.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2005, 05:07:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
M.D. Aletheia's Rationalists Manual (1897). Aletheia's figures are acknowledged by most credible historians to be much too high, but I wanted to use a source who hated Christianity and wouldn't have cut it any breaks in his estimates.

Most people when they conceive of the Inquisition think of mass round-ups and indiscriminate burnings leading to a huge death toll. However the objective of the Inquisition was to produce a forced conversion to Roman Catholicism, and often the threat of torture, imprisonment, or death was sufficient to do so. For instance, the majority of Spanish Muslims brought before the Inquisition "converted" rather than being killed. The majority of the burnt were Protestants and Jews who doggedly refused to recant and were handed over to the state as traitors to be executed.

- SEAGOON


Oh yeah, check out some of this http://www.borndigital.com/racking.htm  not sure of the source, but pretty brutal
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2005, 05:36:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon

Death Tolls (murders, executions, forced famines)
Mao: 48 Million
Stalin: 20 Million
Khmer Rouge: 1.5 Million


Automatic gun, car,train ,telephone  

Quote

Spanish Inquisition (1400s-1834): 35,534
Crusades (1095-1291): 5 Million
[/B]


Black powder gun/sword , horse , diligence, smoke signal ?



Actually if you forgive technology you can't compare IMO.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Interesting Report on Saudi Hate Campaign
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2005, 05:44:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Actually if you forgive technology you can't compare IMO.


Nah. Stalin had the NKVD shoot 24,000 Polish POW's one at time with Makarov pistols. Pretty much the same rate there.

You can kill as many as you want; all it takes is time. The oldsters has as much or more time as the latest technical killers.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!