Oil in the ANWR

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Toad
N.J. targets vessel liability



Well, only a quarter million gallons or so.............

When was the last major oil spill? The Exxon Valdez maybe? (Prior to this one)

Major oil spills from super tankers dont happen that often Toad, especially when you consider how much oil is shipped via super tanker.

*edit* btw, I think raising the minimun insurance coverage for super tankers is a good idea. The oil companies should be paying every red cent of the clean up costs, not tax payers imo.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Toad
N.J. targets vessel liability



Well, only a quarter million gallons or so.............

And it's just the Deleware river.......it's not like some arctic wastland was harmed or anything.

[john9001]

Originally posted by Elfie

*edit* btw, I think raising the minimun insurance coverage for super tankers is a good idea. The oil companies should be paying every red cent of the clean up costs, not tax payers imo.

oil co's don't pay anything, you pay at the pump for "their" clean up. the consumer/taxpayer pays for everything in the end.

there is no "government funding' it's all taxpayer funding.
there are no corp taxes, it's passed on to the comsumer.

[Toad]

With cleanup costs approaching $100 million in the Nov. 26 accident

$100 million isn't major money? A quarter million gallons in the river isn't a major spill?

OK.

Ship name Year Location Oil lost (tonnes)

Amoco Cadiz 1978 Off Brittany, France 223,000

Haven1991Genoa, Italy144,000

Torrey Canyon1967 Scilly Isles, UK 119,000

Urquiola1976La Coruña, Spain 100,000

Jakob Maersk 1975 Oporto

Portugal 88,000 Braer 1993 Shetland Islands, UK 85,000

Aegean Sea 1992 La Coruña, Spain 74,000

Nassia1994Black sea Turkey33,000

Sea Empress 1996 Milford Haven, UK 72,000

Erika1999Off Brittany, France20,000

Prestige2002 Off Cap Finistere, Spain 77,000

Source: ITOPF 2003

Now, your turn.

Because the drilling operations can disrupt things like caribou migrations. Pipelines can spring leaks etc.

The Alaska Pipeline was completed in 1977.

[/quote]Alaska's largest caribou herd, the Western Arctic Caribou herd, has grown to at least 490,000 animals, according to a survey recently completed by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game.

This vast herd ranges over a 140,000 square-mile area bounded by the Arctic Ocean, the lower Yukon River and the trans-Alaska pipeline.[/quote]

How many huge oil spills have their been from the Alaska Pipeline?

I don't know... but I'm curious.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by john9001
oil co's don't pay anything, you pay at the pump for "their" clean up. the consumer/taxpayer pays for everything in the end.

there is no "government funding' it's all taxpayer funding.
there are no corp taxes, it's passed on to the comsumer.

Give that man a cigar.

Exactly why Buisnesses and the Rich dont need to be taxed more.
It just gets passed on to the consumer.

Hell Even in my humble little buisness every time my costs go up I just pass it on

[Silat]

Originally posted by Toad
Out of curiosity, what was the very first estimate of oil under Saudi Arabia?

Dont know the answer to that. But this isnt the first estimate done. Even the oil companies dont disagree.

[Silat]

Originally posted by NUKE
It's just funny to me.....the hypocracy of the environmental groups protesting the drilling. It has to be drilled from somewhere and right now there is "precious" desert in the Middle East with many drills, pipelines, refineries and shipping for getting the oil to us.

I guess they only care about the local area, not the environment as a whole.

Duh!! Obviously. And its not just the "enviros". We have war over there so we dont have it here. We do a lot of things "over there" so we dont suffer the effects.

[Silat]

Originally posted by Elfie
When was the last major oil spill? The Exxon Valdez maybe? (Prior to this one)

Major oil spills from super tankers dont happen that often Toad, especially when you consider how much oil is shipped via super tanker.

*edit* btw, I think raising the minimun insurance coverage for super tankers is a good idea. The oil companies should be paying every red cent of the clean up costs, not tax payers imo.

And be damned glad they dont happen often. Just google the economic repurcussions of a single spill.

[bigsky]

ANWR is just smoke and mirrors. if want to pump domestic oil why not just uncap the wells in northern wyoming and pump away. there are many in the UP of michigan that are capped too. i would like to know why they are capped.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by bigsky
ANWR is just smoke and mirrors. if want to pump domestic oil why not just uncap the wells in northern wyoming and pump away. there are many in the UP of michigan that are capped too. i would like to know why they are capped.

and Texas and Oklahoma too. The US has plenty of oil.......we are just gonna buy all the oil we can until it's gone, then we'll uncap those wells and pump away.

Those sorry Arabs will be back in the stone age again because they are too stupid to try to do anything to better there nations,  other than sell oil.

[Elfie]

Toad that is certainly more spills than I was aware of, but considering the sheer numbers of super tankers, and the amount of oil they transport yearly it is still a pretty safe way to transport the oil. (The Exxon Valdez isnt even in your list, it spilled crap loads of crude into a pristine wilderness, mid 80's)

Also Toad, it's been 18 years since I left Alaska. They may have found a solution to the caribous reluctance to cross the pipeline. I'm just not aware of it (as I stated earlier). If they have, whatever idea they came up with for the current pipeline could be applied to a new one as well.

From what I recall, even when the caribou werent crossing the pipeline they still migrated. They just used a new migration route. Caribou migration routes alter from year to year on a cycle. The caribou themselves are very hard on the land they migrate through. It takes something like 10 years for the land to recover from literally hundreds of thousands of animals passing over it. Concerns were also raised about whether or not a new migration route would have variances in it like the original one did.

The current pipeline isnt buried, is inspected on a routine basis and any required repairs are made immediately. So no...there hasnt been any major spills.

You're right john about the oil companies just passing the costs on to you and me, I am very tired atm and didn't consider that heh.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by bigsky
ANWR is just smoke and mirrors. if want to pump domestic oil why not just uncap the wells in northern wyoming and pump away. there are many in the UP of michigan that are capped too. i would like to know why they are capped.

There are many wells capped in Colorado as well. In many cases it is not economically feasible to continue pumping from old wells.

[Storm7]

Toad,
Thanks for bringing the point of caribou migrations to light. My Father-in-law works in the petroleum industry up there and told me that fact a while ago. The pipeline has not stopped their migrations and their population has grown since it was built.

As a mariner, the idea of stopping spills from ships is impossible. No amount of tanker construction safeguards will stop accidents. Double hull construction is only as effective as the quality of the ship's crew.  Due to the actions of the Mate on watch, the Exxon Valdez would have still spilled a large amount of its oil even if it would have been double-hulled.

Holding companies liable is also a limited possibility. Most accidents happen on ships owned by single-ship companies. If brought to court, they can simply close up shop leaving the cost of the clean-up to the government. Even Exxon has limited its exposure by making each of its ships (now called Sea River Shipping) independent corporations.

Also the existance of countries that have low training standards and regulations (flags of convenience) are magnets to the ship owners wanting to maximize profit while limiting liability.

I have only heard of one large spill involving the Alaskan Pipeline. An angry local shot several holes in a section of it and caused a rather large spill. I believe it was in the 10,000 gallon range. I am not totally sure though. Still, drilling and shipping by pipeline, is much safer and more efficient than shipping.

[Toad]

I don't know if drilling in the ANWR is worth it or not.

I'm predisposed to think that it can be done without significant damage to the environment IF there is adequate oversight, which would include putting some of those opposed to it on the oversight board.

At least I think the risk wouldn't be too far out of line with that of shipping oil around the globe.

We'll see I guess.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by bigsky
ANWR is just smoke and mirrors. if want to pump domestic oil why not just uncap the wells in northern wyoming and pump away. there are many in the UP of michigan that are capped too. i would like to know why they are capped.

Like I said before.

Use everyone elses first.

Lets say for instance life depended on crackers
And the Cracker supply was not infinate and at some point it will run out.

Now you have some crackers but someone else has alot more and is willing to part with them.

Whos crackers do you consume first?

If you consume all your crackers then you have no more.
Then your really screwed.

But if you consume all the other guys crackers first he may eventually run out or cut you off but you will still have some of your own.

Like it or not for better or worse this and most of the world and its industries are dependant on oil and its various byproducts in one form or another. Shut off the oil and everything comes to a sceeching halt and civilisation as we know it
Will cease to exist (Think Mad Max)

Think Im crazy? just think back to the oil shortage of the 70's and how nutty people were getting. And that was just a temporary shortage.

And alternative fuels on a large scale basis do not seem to be a viable option in the immediate future.

So for the moment we are stuck with what we have, and what other people have.

So before we cunsume all of ours we should comsume everyone elses and we will be in a much stronger position later when the watermelon really does hit the fan