Author Topic: The List (Read 1239 times)

Bluefish · « **Reply #30 on:** March 11, 2005, 06:23:53 PM »

Over the weekend I met a sweet little old grandmother who discovered she was on "the List" while trying to fly to California. She has absolutely NO idea why (other than that she has a common first and last name). The scariest thing was the letter from the TSA Ombudsman detailing what she needed to do to try to get off the List, which ended by saying basically that there's no assurance that she'll ever be actually removed.

I'm far from being a screaming civil libertarian, but God forbid that these sorts of "lists", compiled by unknown persons on the basis of unknown information, start to become the criteria for enjoying basic civil rights and freedoms in this country. I can almost hear Beria and Himmler having a good chuckle over the possibility.

Curval · « **Reply #31 on:** March 11, 2005, 07:32:47 PM »

BAN LISTS!!!!

Toad · « **Reply #32 on:** March 11, 2005, 11:33:42 PM »

I said 50+ years going off the top of my head. I should have said 60+ because it was in 1946 that the Home Secretary announced a policy change, that henceforth, self-defense would no longer be considered a good reason for being granted a Firearms Certificate.

Note, however that even up into the 1960's your cop-kings still considered "sporting" purposes a reason to issue a rifle or handgun license.

Just fact Beet. And the folks I know DID buy rifles, shotguns and handguns not all that long ago using the "sporting purposes" justification. For example, a Gamekeeper bought a pistol for varmint control.

Again, the point you ignore is that the post-Hungerford/Dunblane laws did not lower your gun crime rates.

Here, OTOH, the cities with the most restrictive gun laws have higher gun crime than concealed carry cities.

Sooner or later, you'll figure out that England and the US are not in the least alike with respect to their societies. What works for you would cause rebellion here.

We have what we want. We had some really sharp fellows write it all up right after we kicked your lordships out of here. While you HAD the right... as Blackstone said in 1765:

Quote

The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence suitable to their condition and degree

but you folks gave it up, which makes Ben Franklin's quote about liberty and safety stand out prominently in my mind.

We codified it into the Second Amendement in 1791; we're not about to give it up.

Now, would you please have the common courtesy to stop hijacking this thread and start another if you want to continue to display your totally unfounded beliefs about gun crime?

rpm · « **Reply #33 on:** March 11, 2005, 11:58:56 PM »

4 words...

gun

show

parking

lot

capt. apathy · « **Reply #34 on:** March 12, 2005, 12:09:46 AM »

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Originally posted by Toad
No, but they are the ones trying to use it to deny one of the rights guaranteed to US citizens by the Constitution.

more than one. the right to arms and presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a court of law to name just 2.

people can try to make it partisan if they want but IMO there has been no shortage of politicians on both sides of the isle playing it pretty free and loose with the constitution.

we need to stop this trend in all areas instead of just trying to protect our 'pet issues'.

Toad · « **Reply #35 on:** March 12, 2005, 12:16:56 AM »

Apathy, we basically agree. I view it as more of a pendulum swing. It's gone about as far one way as I care to see. Time to push it back the other way.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #36 on:** March 12, 2005, 01:17:45 AM »

unfortunately when it swings back we'll be stuck in the same boat.

with one side taking the momentum of the swing twards center and using that to push things too far the other way.

I'd like to see a bunch of us in the center try and grab on and hold it as it passes somewhere in the neighborhood of reasonable. but then I can be a bit of a dreamer.

beet1e · « **Reply #37 on:** March 12, 2005, 03:45:44 AM »

Mr. Toad,

No need for a new thread; I think we're almost done. We could take it to email, if you like. Do you still have that dog box email address?

What I find funny is you pontificating about life in Britain as if you have some omniscient knowledge of same, but you have NEVER lived here (apart from military service?), and in the same breath saying that I'm unaware of my own history for the last 50 years, when I have lived here for all but about 2-3 years of it, and have lived amongst the very people you claim to have benefited from the right to own guns. And I can tell you now that NONE of my peers had parents who owned guns, and NONE of my parents' friends owned guns. My father had a cousin who enjoyed field sports - the sort of thing you enjoy - and he had various shotguns. That's about it.

Quote

Again, the point you ignore is that the post-Hungerford/Dunblane laws did not lower your gun crime rates.

I don't ignore it. As Dowding once pointed out to you, British gun ownership before the ban was "sod all". This is the very point you consistently ignore. And because gun ownership was sod all, there was very little gun crime. It was next to nothing - and I know you agree - so no significant reduction in gun crime was possible. Where we don't agree is that you want to believe that the 1997 legislation was a ban. It was, of sorts, but legislation was already very, very tight long before that.

Quote

but you folks gave it up, which makes Ben Franklin's quote about liberty and safety stand out prominently in my mind.

Liberty - and safety ? Surely you jest. The gun homicide rate in Britain is less than 1% of what it is in the US. The figures speak for themselves about which country offers the greatest safety from being shot.

I tell you what - I don't live very far from Hungerford. I think I'll take a walk in the town centre this afternoon, and I'm going to ask some elderly folks (who were alive in 1946) about how they feel about gun rights. I'll surreptitiously record the conversations, and post on here - or in a new thread if you prefer.

SunTracker · « **Reply #38 on:** March 12, 2005, 04:21:21 AM »

I believe Americans should be allowed to purchase Tow missles and machines guns for hunting purposes.

JB88 · « **Reply #39 on:** March 12, 2005, 07:02:29 AM »

yet another example of intrusive government bull pucky.

if you cannot appeal. it is unconstitutional and un-american. IMPO.

Curval · « **Reply #40 on:** March 12, 2005, 07:34:22 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by rpm
4 words...

gun

show

parking

lot

Now this is a telling post.

On a list and can't buy a gun at the gun show? Head to the parking lot and buy one out of the trunk of someones car.

Oh dear me.

JB88 · « **Reply #41 on:** March 12, 2005, 07:36:06 AM »

its the agreggate result of prohibition.

you know, guns can be made too.

i grew up around some old farmers that made 7 shot six shooters from scratch.

Toad · « **Reply #42 on:** March 12, 2005, 08:38:41 AM »

Start a new thread Beet. I merely say once again you don't know what you're talking about on so many levels in that last post that to answer would be a major continuation to your continual pathetic hijack.

lazs2 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 12, 2005, 08:39:53 AM »

I have never heard of the "list". It sounds like it is badly done and illegal tho.

bustr is correct... take any white small town population and isolate it and guns or no guns you will have very little crime or violence.

beetles england has very little homicide or gun crime with or without guns so what is the point of disarming the law abiding?

siaf... I don't know if things have gottern to the point where all normal citizens need to be armed to the teeth but... I would hate to get to the point where normal citizens were forbiden to own firearms by their government. That is scarry. Are you afraid that normal citizens with guns will.... will what? Turn to crime? go crazy because of an object?

lazs

Schaden · « **Reply #44 on:** March 12, 2005, 08:41:59 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by beet1e
Still, the lady from the car rental agency says I'll be OK.

Gosh as long as she's given the OK what could possibly go wrong!!