Author Topic: The List  (Read 1345 times)

Offline Shamus

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« on: March 11, 2005, 10:13:17 AM »
What do you mean I cant buy this shotgun, I'm not a convicted felon?

Maybe not, but you are on the list.

What list?

"The" list.

How did I get on "The" list?

Don't know , the only thing that counts is you are on it.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=7857491
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2005, 10:15:38 AM »
This just in... Our elected representatives are morons.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2005, 10:17:57 AM »
Quote
..New York Democrat Rep. Carolyn McCarthy introduced legislation


Are there any other questions? Laz is once again vindicated.
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Offline Shamus

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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2005, 10:20:53 AM »
I wondered how long it would take to become partisan :)

shamus
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Offline TheDudeDVant

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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2005, 10:23:01 AM »
Quote
The Government Accountability Office report Tuesday said people associated with terrorist groups had taken advantage of loopholes in U.S. gun laws that do not automatically bar a person belonging to such a group from buying a gun. It documented 44 attempts and 35 successful sales in five months of 2004, and another 12 sales later in the year.


Does this not ring odd? 44 documented attempts to purchase firearms by 'terrorist groups'.  35 successful?

So wouldn't this mean we must have 44 persons belonging to these' terrorist groups' in custody all coming from inside the US?? Or at least some if not all 44 instances are from different peps? I've not heard of any terrorist arrested inside the US?? If they are not arrested, wouldn't that mean we have bigger problems elsewhere??

Offline Toad

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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2005, 10:31:03 AM »
It isn't partisan, it's fact. It validates a veritable host of stereotypes in one fell swoop; woman, New Yorker, Democrat.

Do these people ever think? A list where you have no idea how you got on it, how to get off of it or even who makes the decision to put you on the list. There is no appeal.

And we should use this list to prohibit people from doing/buying some things?

Doesn't it make sense that we don't want terrorists buying cars too? I mean, given their worldwide history, car bombs are one of their prime tools. So, obviously, if you are on this list, you shouldn't be able to buy a car.

Hey...wait a minute.... what if the terrorists rents as car? Ah! No one on this list should be able to rent a car!

Ummm..what if they steal a car? Well, they'll still need to buy gasoline .... no one on this list should be able to buy gasoline then. There, that fixes THAT problem.

Review: Secret list. No way to tell how you get on or off of it. No appeal.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Shamus

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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2005, 10:34:25 AM »
Yup I guess those evil dems are the ones who started the list in the first place.

shamus
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2005, 10:43:13 AM »
No, but they are the ones trying to use it to deny one of the rights guaranteed to US citizens by the Constitution.

The list is totally flawed. It's common for individuals who have similar appearing names to be confused with people who are actually on the no-fly list.

So if "John Smith" is on the no-fly, all John Smiths should be denied the right to purchase a gun?

They admit they have a problem:

Quote
An FBI spokesman added officials are trying to enhance the list with such facts as birth dates and other "identifying factors that will permit law-enforcement authorities to ascertain whether the individual in front of them is the person whose name is on the list."


How about we use this list to deny free speech to terrorists? And that pesky 4th.. the illegal search and seizure. Surely you want all terrorists searched as often as possible? So, let's start with "John Smith".

It's a boneheaded idea, at least using the no-fly list as your basis. It's not going to pass in this form.

And yeah... it was put forward by a Democratic woman representing NY.  As I said, that pretty much validates the stereotyping.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Shamus

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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2005, 10:58:58 AM »
Oh I dare say there will be some co-sponsors from the other side of the isle.

shamus
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2005, 11:13:48 AM »
HHHHmmm there is a no fly list. OK why? What is the criteria for being on the list? How are the people on the list identified? No DOB, no drivers license, no physical descriptions on the list to differentiate all those with the same name?!?!?

Given the data as presented, including the lack of ANY data to actually confirm the folks on the "no fly list" were the ones that actually purchased a firearm, how is there proof that they did it?

People identifying someone by name only is a totally absurd way to claim you have them in any kind of surveilance.

FWIW, what is one of the most common types of white collar crime in the US today????? You guessed it, identity theft. So now we have a select group of names that are on a "list". What is the link between the names and a real person???

How in the hell can ANYONE figure that because you have a "name" you have identified an individual???

There is a term that describes this reliance on that type of "system" and the extrapolation that data drawn from it has ANY relevance. That term is the byproduct of male bovine possession.  :rolleyes:
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2005, 11:57:58 AM »
I read the article, and I'm still wincing from the split infinitive in the first paragraph. :(
 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
It isn't partisan, it's fact. It validates a veritable host of stereotypes in one fell swoop; woman, New Yorker, Democrat.

Hehe, I was going to start a thread asking who the anti-gun Americans were. Lazs has already identified the residents of Cook County, but said they were not Americans. Mr. Toad has pre-empted me! Woman, New Yorker, Democrat. I have several friends who match those criteria, and none is a gun owner!

What I find fascinating is that the city people are decried as being anti-gun, and yet it's the cities where most of the crime occurs, including gun homicide. According to the rhetoric I have read on this BBS about the subject, one would have thought that given the "benefits" of gun ownership, guns would be more popular in the cities than in remote rural locations - not the other way round. Could it be that the public at large does not agree with the pro-gun rhetoric we see promulgated on this board? :p

Offline Toad

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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2005, 11:58:47 AM »
Let's see who the co-sponsors are. I haven't been able to find any so far.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2005, 12:00:22 PM »
It could easily be proven that the cities that have the most restrictive gun laws in all the land have the highest rates of gun crime.

From that you might extrapolate that the highly restrictive gun laws don't work and those that support them are....... less than intelligent.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline SOB

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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2005, 12:05:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Could it be that the public at large does not agree with the pro-gun rhetoric we see promulgated on this board? :p

I guess the real question would be, why do you care, and how is it any of your business?
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2005, 12:21:57 PM »
Well that's one extrapolation, but it isn't the only one. The lawmakers might have tried to contain the gun crime problem by implementing restrictions. For example, consider a small town community - somewhere like Victor, Idaho. (picked at random) Not much crime there, so the powers that be have seen no reason to vary the gun rights set out by the 2nd amendment.

Then consider a much larger city (you pick one) where gun control has been introduced. You're saying that gun control doesn't work because the crime is still high in that city. But have you considered that if nothing had been done, the gun crime might be even worse?

It's difficult to draw an analogy, but here's something: Imagine a middle class town, where everyone owns their own home, and is full of old farts in their 50s - people like us - who drive safely. There'd never have been any calls for a seatbelt law, and probably little or no need for one. But then consider a larger anarchic settlement, where people drive like idiots in busted up cars. TPTB mandate compulsory seatbelt usage to counter the carnage. It helps to a degree, but still a few people are killed - side impact, car overturns, whatever. The erroneous conclusion that could be drawn from that is that "seatbelts don't work and don't save lives".

Just a thought...


SOB - because I often exercise my right to leave Britain and visit the US, and I need to consider my personal safety! Still, the lady from the car rental agency says I'll be OK. :aok