Notes for Mk XIV / 109 K comparison article

[MiloMorai]

Typical Barbi. He puts dowm MW but then turns around and uses his site.

Then he can't remember what he puts in his own article. That is to be expected.

If you weren't so cheap Barbi you would have bought 'Spitfire: the History' and you could have gone throught the serial numbers and seen where the Mk XIVs went.

After saying I called Butch a liar, he then turns around and calls Butch a liar (re fuel supply).

Barbi sure likes to use the word liar a lot.

I should add that 750 Mk XIVs had been delievered before war end.

[bunch]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
....I should add that 750 Mk XIVs had been delievered before war end.

..not to mention a significant number of F.21s also

[Kurfürst]

So no reference, no source, just the usual incoherent hysteria.

[straffo]

120 of 3000 F21 built

Source : http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/spit8.html

Is the RAF Site credible enought for you ?

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
So no reference, no source, just the usual incoherent hysteria.

I can't help your lack of reading comprehension Barbi for sources were given.

To refresh you, "Then he can't remember what he puts in his own article. That is to be expected.

If you weren't so cheap Barbi you would have bought 'Spitfire: the History' and you could have gone throught the serial numbers and seen where the Mk XIVs went."

Do you not consider yourself a reference source?

The only 'incoherent hysteria' is by you Barbi.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
So no reference, no source, just the usual incoherent hysteria.

You see, this is the kind of non-producticve stuff that is just a direct insult to those trying to have a discussion with you.  I'll certainly grant that the tone is negative on both sides, but you are the driving force for it.  You frequently post with no content other than an insult.  This is the kind of behavior that risks banning.


You really should buy Spitfire: The History

Who knows, after reading it you might come to appriciate the Spitfire along side the Bf109.  They're both great fighters with interesting stories.

[Squire]

937 Spit XIVs were built, Source "Spitfire in Action" page 39 Squadron Signal.

In the ETO the following Spit XIV Sqn were operational in the ETO by *November 1944* with the 2nd Allied Tactical Air Force on the Continent: Nos 610, 91, 322, 41, 130, 350, 403, 2 (8 Squadrons). Source "Late Marque Spitfire Aces" Opsrey, pages 32-33. More were added by wars end (Milos post looks accurate to me), and 37 RAF Sqns eventually flew they type. Source "Spitfire in Action" page 39, Squadron Signal.

Along with the Hawker Tempest they formed the backbone of the RAFs air superiority fighters in Europe. Source "Late Marque Spitfire Aces" Opsrey, page 33.

You can verify the above in your own time, there are any # of credible sources for Spit XIV squads at wars end, and for the #s at varying stages.

*As for #s of operational 109K-4s flown during the war, somebody else can find that data. I have seen quotes on what units used "some" of them without any strengths given. This is mainly due to the difficulty of finding info on the LW in the last 6 months of the war.*

"So no reference, no source, just the usual incoherent hysteria."

-Indeed?

As for the 109K-4 itself (and the 109G-10), they were, by all accounts, the pinnacle of fighter design, and their performance is a reflection of that. They certainly were on par with anything in the world in 1945 from the data I have seen?, both in terms of speed and climb rate. I cant recall anybody credible claiming otherwise (including authors on Spitfire books). If you want to endlessly bicker over +/- 10 mph at a given alt, fuel type, boost pressure, go ahead...

[bunch]

¦¬þ

on the 16th of April, they blew up a submarine

[MANDO]

Originally posted by Squire
As for the 109K-4 itself (and the 109G-10), they were, by all accounts, the pinnacle of fighter design

Just a reminder, by that time, Messerchmitt itself was well ahead of 109K technology or any Supermarine product: Me 262. Who knows how much effort was put into 109 enhancings when they already had operational jets.

[Squire]

Point taken on the jets.

You can also add the Fw 190D-9, Tempest V, and F4U-4 to the list of very impressive late war fighters. Each type having qualities that made them special given certain circumstances.

[MiloMorai]

'Die angegabenen Leistungen werden mit gut gebauten Serienmachinen sicher erreicht.', or 'The above given performances are certainly going to be reached with well-built serial production machines.'

How well built would they be since 'slave' labour was used? Now I know I will hear no 'slave' labour was used but Willey went to prison for using 'slave' labour.

There was also sabatoge by the 'slave' labour and if caught it was off to the gas chambers for the culprits.

It is a dream that the K-4 was well built, as a whole.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Squire
937 Spit XIVs were built, Source "Spitfire in Action" page 39 Squadron Signal.

[/B]

937 including post-war production, in comparison to
1700 K-4,
1400 Me 262s,
2600 G-10s
5000 + MkIX etc.


Now, in your opinion, which type was more common is service?
After all, this is the part you cannot seem to able to accept, that XIVs were few around.

Originally posted by Squire

In the ETO the following Spit XIV Sqn were operational in the ETO by *November 1944* with the 2nd Allied Tactical Air Force on the Continent: Nos 610, 91, 322, 41, 130, 350, 403, 2 (8 Squadrons).

Originally posted by Squire


Ahem, 322 operated a mix of recce FR XIVs and Mustangs and was performing recce missions.

On my site I note the following, 7 FIGHTER XIV squadrons of them :

"In comparison, according to Neil Stirling, as on of 14th December 1944, there were altogether 120 Spitfire Mk. XIVs. with the operationally fit Squadrons:

- 41 Squadron,
-130 Squadron,
-350 Squadron,
-402 Squadron,
-610 Squadron,
-430 Squadron
-2 Squadron

I`d rather trust Neil in this subject.

The case is quite clear, there were 120 XIVs with units at that including the reserves, and 314, three times as many K-4 not including reserves.


More were added by wars end (Milos post looks accurate to me),

Post the evidence, the squadron number, and the date of conversion, the source, . Then the article will be updated.
If not, nothing will change just because someone on a BB *thinks*, *feels* that there were more.



and 37 RAF Sqns eventually flew they type.Source "Spitfire in Action" page 39, Squadron Signal.

Post-war... should I include modern day LW and RAF  Tornado Geschwaders and Squadrons too?



Along with the Hawker Tempest they formed the backbone of the RAFs air superiority fighters in Europe. Source "Late Marque Spitfire Aces" Opsrey, page 33.



30 old Spitfire IX, XVI squadrons, only 5 Spit XIV squadrons.
5 or so Tempest units with the 2nd TAF.

FYI, these 5 Squadrons are equivalent of one or two Gruppes of the LW in number - each gruppe contained 3-4 Staffels, or Squadrons..

K-4 Gruppes : 3-4 Squadrons each

III. / JG 3 Bf 109 K-4  
III. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4
IV. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4  
I. / JG 27 Bf 109 K-4
II. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4
III. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4
IV. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4
II. / KG(J) 6  Bf 109 K-4
II. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 K-4

Almost all the rest were to convert to K-4 at this time.



You can verify the above in your own time, there are any # of credible sources for Spit XIV squads at wars end, and for the #s at varying stages.

You know what, I`d rather stick to the numbers that were posted by Neil and the OOBs for the 2nd TAF from various books as I feel no need to include made-up fantasy XIV squadrons by fans. And yes, we should include the Mk 21s as well - even if the didn`t differ at all in performance from XIVs, even if according to all Spit literature they didn`t saw any combat, their ww2 activity being limited to a few examples doing operational trials.



*As for #s of operational 109K-4s flown during the war, somebody else can find that data. I have seen quotes on what units used "some" of them without any strengths given. This is mainly due to the difficulty of finding info on the LW in the last 6 months of the war.*

WW2.dk is a credible source for them, they list all types for all LW units from 3.42 to 12.44. Collect the data and you can get the picture. I did. The K-4s number was 200 in October, November and December, and went up to 314 in January. G-10s not counted. The source is given on the site btw.

As for the 109K-4 itself (and the 109G-10), they were, by all accounts, the pinnacle of fighter design, and their performance is a reflection of that. They certainly were on par with anything in the world in 1945 from the data I have seen?, both in terms of speed and climb rate. I cant recall anybody credible claiming otherwise (including authors on Spitfire books). If you want to endlessly bicker over +/- 10 mph at a given alt, fuel type, boost pressure, go ahead... [/B]

You should send that to Mr. Williams, after all, it`s him who spent a lot of time manipulating the existing evidence to make one plane look godly and the other miserable, instead of just honestly presenting the information. Which I merely pointed out. Speaking of him, I wonder where he hides now.


And btw... any of you gentlemen come up with credible information and I will include it. The point of the internet is to learn, and my objective is get things right, not to get up a stupid fansite of my fav aircraft and tell the world it was the best in everything, the opposition sucked, and i can prove that with lies and manipulation, which is what williams does on his little site.

You can do this, or leave the matter alone.. or just hang around admire the convincing power of poor Milo`s posts.

[HoHun]

Hi Mando,

>Just a reminder, by that time, Messerchmitt itself was well ahead of 109K technology or any Supermarine product: Me 262. Who knows how much effort was put into 109 enhancings when they already had operational jets.

I believe Messerschmitt personally worked on the Me 262 and its derivatives with increased wing sweep that were supposed to break Mach 1.

Still, the Me 109 got a lot of engineering attention as well even late in its life. The RLM insisted on standardization, realizing that 16 subtypes in 82 variations were in production at the same time, and demanded a substantial performance increase at the same time.

As a result, Ludwig Bölkow was made leader of a taskforce with Richard Bauer, the Me 109's original chief designer, as his right hand and ten exerienced engineers - the development bureau, as the task force was called, had a staff of 140 people in total.

They moved away from Regensburg and started to work at Wiener Neustadt early in 1943 and were responsible for continuous development of the Me 109 after the introduction of the G-6 (I estimate). The improvements found on the late Gustavs resulted from the work of Bölkow's crew, but the final, standardized version of course was the K-4.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Squire]

*I simply included the total # produced of XIVs as the source I have gives the #.

*7 Sqns with F.XIV (91, 610, 41, 403,130, 350, 322) and 2 with the F.R.XIV (430 and 2). 9 in total, with 2nd ATAF from November 44 untill wars end. Thats just squadrons in the ETO with 2 ATAF. I dont have an exact breakdown of other deployments handy.

*Your list of LW a/c is also total #s produced as well, not delivered, or used operationally. It was how many squadrons that could sortie a/c that is the issue.

"K-4 Gruppes : 3-4 Squadrons each"

The strengths varied widely, as an internet source this one site isnt bad:

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/flugbew.htm

The units you list are for the entire LW 109 day fighter OOB, East and West front. In any case I made no claim regarding 109K-4 production. The 109G-10 and 109K-4 were being produced for the 109 JGs, so its not a big controversy many saw service. Pilot and fuel shortages were the big factor in 1945 for the LW. It was not airframes they ran out of.

As for the RAF, it deployed more than enough Spit XIVs and Tempests and Mustang IIIs to perform the missions that were required of them, and the majority of 1945 sorties flown by the RAF were air-ground in nature, for obvious reasons. It was never tasked with "deploy as many Spit XIVs as the entire LW day fighter strength possessed", and I have never heard anybody claim that they were ever asked to do that.

*As for "30 old Spitfire IX, XVI squadrons", the LF IXs and XVIs were no more "old" than the 109G-6 (late model), or 109G-14, or Fw190A-8 or Fw190F series of fighters the Jagdwaffe possessed from the Spring of 1944 to the beggining of 1945.

[MiloMorai]

LOL Barbi, you only want to believe what fits your twisted reality.

And btw... any of you gentlemen come up with credible information and I will include it. The point of the internet is to learn, and my objective is get things right, not to get up a stupid fansite of my fav aircraft and tell the world it was the best in everything, the opposition sucked, and i can prove that with lies and manipulation, which is what williams does on his little site.

Why won't you believe 'Spitfire: The History'?


There was less than a 1000 Me262s delivered. One only has to look at the number sent on mission, typically staffel or less, to see there were very few used operationally.

FYI, these 5 Squadrons are equivalent of one or two Gruppes of the LW in number - each gruppe contained 3-4 Staffels, or Squadrons..

K-4 Gruppes : 3-4 Squadrons each

As of Dec 31 1944

III./ JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 > 8
III./ JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 > 26
IV./ JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 > 7
I./ JG 27 Bf 109 K-4 > 14
II./ JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 > 5
III./ JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 > 0
IV./ JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 > 0

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bjagd.htm

So of those 700 or so K-4s produced til the end of 1944 ONLY 60 were with operational units and not all would be servicable. That is only equivelent to 3 squadrons of Mk XIVs.

I see nothing honest in Barbi, as the above shows. Those listed JGs (from his post) should have had at least 252 K-4s 'on strength'. Another example of his manipulating and twisting of data to further his agenda.

As for his research ability, he did leave off II./JG27 (0 K-4), III./JG27 (26 K-4s), I./JG77 (1 K-4), III./JG77 (27 K-4s), I./JG4 (2 K-4s). So now we have 116 K-4s, or ~ 1/7th of those produced, deployed to operational units.

It would be worth going through that website for the G-14s and G-10s to see how many were really in service.