Notes for Mk XIV / 109 K comparison article

[Angus]

Since the LW according to Barbi had ample fuel, ample boost, ample planes and had lost very few pilots over the war, then why wasn't the sky full of them untill the last days of the war?

Thousands of Uberboosted 109K's, D9's, Jets etc, mostly flown by experts (Since the LW lost only 6K pilots in the war?)......

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by MiloMorai

So of those 700 or so K-4s produced til the end of 1944 ONLY 60 were with operational units and not all would be servicable. That is only equivelent to 3 squadrons of Mk XIVs.I see nothing honest in Barbi, as the above shows. Those listed JGs (from his post) should have had at least 252 K-4s 'on strength'

[/B]

They did had about 200.

K-4 Strenghts were on 1st Dec 1944, minus other types :

II. / JG 2                   2
III. / JG 3                   9
I. / JG 4                   0*
III. / JG 4                   36
III. / JG 26   35
I. / JG 27                   15
II. / JG 27                   4
III. / JG 27   38
IV. / JG 27   4
Stab / JG 53   0*
II. / JG 53    0*
I. / JG 77                   0*
III. / JG 77   68
II. / KG(J) 6   2
Stab / KG(J) 27   0*
II. / KG(J) 27   0*
----------------------------   
Total : 213

*On 31st December, it totalled 196 w. including these units which received Ks later in dec.

"Those listed JGs (from his post) should have had at least 252 K-4s 'on strength'. Another example of his manipulating and twisting of data to further his agenda.

It`s only an example of your intelligence, taking the unit list from March 1945, and look up the December figures for those units, and crying around that it isn`t a match. Of course it doesn`t.


To qoute KARNAK from here http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144605&pagenumber=3 :

"You really, really, really need to educate your self before spouting of the sheer idiocy you just did. You obviously know absolutely nothing about the subject you are now potificating about. Nothing you have ever posted before has ever revealed your ignorance and bias more than this post."

I think the qoute just fits your case here. I think it`s a very constructive to qoute Karnak, constructive discussion mean a lot to him so I am learning his ways to improve mine.


@Angie,

What`s your point? Or your post was just supposed to give us an example what is it like when post of others get distorted to their extreme in the angiebangie mind, and this is the reaction that follows when history doesn`t match what angiebangie imagines about it ?  You know the saying, 'when you have nothing to say, just don`t say anything.' You should really think about that, angie.

bah.

[Angus]

Oh, dear, again
Barbi/Izzy/Kurfurst:
"What`s your point? Or your post was just supposed to give us an example what is it like when post of others get distorted to their extreme in the angiebangie mind, and this is the reaction that follows when history doesn`t match what angiebangie imagines about it ? You know the saying, 'when you have nothing to say, just don`t say anything.' You should really think about that, angie.

bah"

Well, my point is that despite all the high German production numbers and low German loss rates you supply as data, vs. say the few and futile RAF planes on the field. the LW was but a shadow of it former self from the autumn 1944 onwards. It was also manned largely with rather raw pilots. Hence the occurence of allied fighter pilots flying a whole T.O.D. 1944/1945 without ever engaging in combat.
Some of your data (not saying all) or maybe rather the conclusions being drawn from it don't match history. Dead simple.
Maybe it is the missing parts, but it seems to me that in Izzyworld the skies were full of expertly flown uberfighters untill the Fuhrer accidentally plonked some lead through his head.

[MANDO]

Originally posted by MiloMorai


http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bjagd.htm

What about reading the introduction?


http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/bintro.htm

I would say it is an unfinished work based on incomplete documents.

[MiloMorai]

You don't know the difference between month start and month end Barbi?

"As of Dec 31 1944 "

Now tell me where you stated the date in your post? Note that the RAF memo is date Nov 1944 which was then followed by your incomplete list of K-4 units. I did go on and add to your list, but then you missed that because you went into one of your beserker rages.

Using your new list (excluding the KG(J) units) there should have been between 432 and 576 K-4s with those units. Yet there was between 1/4 and1/3 of those 700 odd produced in 1944 in operational units (207 on Dec 1 and 149 on Dec 31). Another example of dishonest misrepresentation by you.


Ah MANDO,

quote by Barbi "WW2.dk is a credible source for them" Missed that, you did.

[MANDO]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
quote by Barbi "WW2.dk is a credible source for them" Missed that, you did.

Yes, it seems credible, but also incomplete. Probably only 43 list is finished or almost finished.

[gripen]

By faustnik in the il2forums.

gripen

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by MANDO
Yes, it seems credible, but also incomplete. Probably only 43 list is finished or almost finished.

If it has Barbi's seal of approval, then it should be good enough for the rest of us.


There is the odd error.

[Angus]

Good point Mando.
I remember looking up a certain Stuka, which was supposed to have been at Stalingrad, - yet it was fished out of the Med, and if my memory serves me, it was already wearing desert camo.
I can probably link a picture of it if needed.
Anyway, that said, the website is not to blame, but the actual data, which seams to be incorrect. Well, there is always the fog of war etc. Fact remains that late war LW documents were largely destroyed and perhaps there were some that were not quite complete/accurate enough anyway.

[Angus]

Oh, forgot something.
I looked through the LW loss records at the film archive in the IWM, London. It's rather a mess!
Oh, - there was some more, but it's dinnertime, so bye for now

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by bunch
¦¬þ

on the 16th of April, they blew up a submarine

Just to add to Bunch's post.  One of the two 91 Spit 21 drivers mentioned.  F/O Johnny Faulkner.

I got the image from F/L H.D. Johnson who was in on that Submarine sinking with his room mate Bill Marshall.

Dan

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Angus
Well, my point is that despite all the high German production numbers and low German loss rates you supply as data, vs. say the few and futile RAF planes on the field. the LW was but a shadow of it former self from the autumn 1944 onwards.

[/B]

And from what did you drawn this conclusion? LW strenght reports? LW sorties? Aircraft production? Number of pilots trained? I guess not, so we might as well say you have just no real idea.
Or perhaps there are more reliable sources for that, like, your faint memories of reading some book 6 years ago where somebody, forgot his name, said something like he didn`t see many German fighters in 1944.. or was it 43?

I see a great contrast between mine and your research method.

It was also manned largely with rather raw pilots. Hence the occurence of allied fighter pilots flying a whole T.O.D. 1944/1945 without ever engaging in combat.

[/B]

The LW had a large number of rookie pilots in it`s ranks, so allied fighter pilots didn`t see them. I don`t get the connection, sorry.

Some of your data (not saying all) or maybe rather the conclusions being drawn from it don't match history. Dead simple.

[/B]

What data my dear? What conclusions? Can you list some or you are fighting your windmills again, having visions or something like that ?

Maybe it is the missing parts, but it seems to me that in Izzyworld the skies were full of expertly flown uberfighters untill the Fuhrer accidentally plonked some lead through his head.

No, as I pointed out it`s just the angie`s distorted reception.

What facts I post are without any emotional load in them. Numbers, strenght reports and such. This shouldn`t excite any normal person or put under emotional stress. When someone starts to show a pattern of always forming the same extremely distorted perception on it, while others don`t, I guess the problem is within that single person`s mindset and way of handling this conflict of disagreement.
As an escape reaction, a fantasy reality is being made up by his mind to help over his personality, unable to face the frustration of being wrong without damage. So that he could endure the crisis, the mind helps out him by lying to him, creating a nice little world with strong black and white contrast; in our case the points of others gets distorted to some extreme end, so much that not even an immature personality can have any doubt that it`s wrong, false, and if it`s wrong and false then he is right, not neccesary because he can prove his own way - probably he couldn`t -, but because he can see the other guy is wrong, and so he gets his inner peace.
Well that`s only my amateurish opinion, the real experts probably know and can help you a lot more with that. I think you should really see someone about these conflicts in you. Honestly.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Using your new list (excluding the KG(J) units) there should have been between 432 and 576 K-4s with those units. Yet there was between 1/4 and1/3 of those 700 odd produced in 1944 in operational units (207 on Dec 1 and 149 on Dec 31). Another example of dishonest misrepresentation by you.

I fail to see any coherence or point in this garbage above.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by gripen

By faustnik in the il2forums.gripen

Great gripen, I see you added your input here as well.

Mind if I qoute a few people from the thread you took that nice picture? I already asked faustnik to use it on my site.

BBB_Hyperion :
"At least this article has some proofable points and reference sources as well and some conclusions make sense."

SkyChimp
"Nice job, Isegrim. A little personal, but otherwise very rational and well thought out. And nice to look at, too. I'll save that on to my favorites."

RedNeckerson

"Looks great Kurfurst. Keep up the good work. Do you plan on expanding the site in the future?  "
 
karost

"Kurfurst, that is a good work , Thanks. I like to read a good history inoformation from a difference source point out the same thing ( like bf 109K ) so we can learn what the fact is look like in BF 109s."

Looks like pretty good, huh ?


I may also add that poor Milo wanted to start the same flamefest as here on the LEMB forums (he couldn`t at ubi, because he is already banned from there ), and HoHun put him right back to his place.. I appreciate that HoHun, thanks!

[Angus]

Oh, more of archives.
Isn't the Bundesarchive in Koblenz supposed to be the best one for loss reporst etc, or generally the LW stuff?

And then, from Milo:
"You don't know the difference between month start and month end Barbi?

"As of Dec 31 1944 " "

Now, that is a tricky date, for this is the status before operation Hermann or Bodenplatte, so basically the LW sported their full power in the morning of January the 1st.
It was as much as they could, for they had been saving fuel and holding aircraft from ops in the preceeding weeks.
All is well documented.