Author Topic: Vancouver Tries Free Heroin Program  (Read 3422 times)

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #120 on: March 16, 2005, 08:47:36 AM »
Lazs2/Nash I'm terribly sorry to hear that you've had to go through and live with addiction.

If you think it can't be cured, how did you survive so far and what do you suggest to do to it?

There has to be some way to prevent new people from making the mistake. There must be some way to force users to quit and rethink.

The biggest question to me is what makes a person puff that first puff not to mention shoot that first load in the vein.

What made you do it? Heck, we have experts now on board.

Quote

I can give examples of simple use and mild addiction ruining a persons life tho in all the above mentione tho if you like


You don't have to. Just watch COPS for a few episodes. DUI, drunken and disorderly, domestic violence.. But what is really behind the use. Socioeconomic trouble? Genetics? Social peer pressure?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2005, 08:50:52 AM by Siaf__csf »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #121 on: March 16, 2005, 09:02:30 AM »
everyone reaches a "bottom" if they use long enough or hard enough.   I was about as bad as they get.   I was injured and shot at and stabbed and beat people near to death and it wasn't a big deal... I lost wives and people who loved me and it was no big deal... huge sums of money... no big deal... health... not to worry.  some simply die.  for some reason...  something small set me in motion to quit... all the other bad things in my life seemed to gel over some small thing I can't even recall... It became very clear that I needed to stop.

figure out a way to bottle that.

I made shrinks cry that had tried to talk me out of my addiction in the past with no affect yet... for some reason... everything came together at once and I quit and I found a group of other former addicts that I admired and liked and hung out with them 24/7

my daughter has completrely ruined her life with very little hope of saving herself at this point.  She still lies to herself and everyone else about it and  will not take any blame at all for the way things have gone.  She is very predictable in her behavior to everyone but herself.   I have no idea if she will kick it or die first.  I have done pretty much everything I can do at this point.   I am letting her run.   I will revist helping her at a latter time when it might do some good.   The 3 rehabs did no good at all.

I think that the one thing that most of the recovered people I know have in common is that they are able to use the stubborness that is the addict in a way that helps them quit.  

When I quit the guys in the AA group were all callously making bets on how long I would stay clean with a side bet on how long I would live....  It seemed a tad cruel at the time but it kicked in my stubborness...  

Actually... I really don't have a clue as to what works... it seems different for every recovering addict I know/knew.   I know what makes failure tho....  thinking that you can use again "just like normal people"

lazs

lazs

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #122 on: March 16, 2005, 09:07:21 AM »
Wow now I'm really sorry for you lazs.

There's nothing worse than watching your own childs life get ruined.

Three rehabs without success? May I ask how did she start the use? Were you still abusing when she was a child and she got sucked in?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #123 on: March 16, 2005, 09:13:32 AM »
Most kids start in high school or earlier before the parent even have a clue... if they are an addict... it is far too late by the time you spot it..

My real point was.... the answer to your question and the vast weight of all my experiance...

I don't have a friggin clue as to the answer..

lazs

Offline TexMurphy

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« Reply #124 on: March 16, 2005, 09:15:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
If you think it can't be cured, how did you survive so far and what do you suggest to do to it?


No addiction can be cured.

Why do you think ex-alcoholics stay away from alcohol totally? Because if they have one small drink they fall right back into it.

The physical addiction (the bodies need for the substance) can be reduced to a infinatisimal level but it will always be there lurkin in the shadows. Have a drink, or what ever substance it is, and it kicks in again.

The only way I can see drug usage prevented is if people like Nash and Lazs2 share their stories. Education through "scare propaganda" where someone who doesnt have a clue preaches "drugs kill" is totally useless. Its like preaching to a kid "dont open that door" "dont open that door" ofcourse he will open that door.

Instead if people who have gone through that door tell their story just through reciting their experience it does have an effect. People listen to other people with experience, if its provided through a very human way it is even more powerfull.

The thing is it aint enough to just hear it once from one person. People really need to be reminded of it constantly (at least once in a while). I say people because while I think this really has to start in the schools it has to continue through out ones entire life. So education on this should be in schools, workplaces and at home.

But it doesnt end there. Its also a social problem. Alot (ofcourse not all) substance abuse is related to social situations, be it the neighbour hood you grow up in, broken marriges, "wrong" friends or just general lonelyness. The social aspect cant be ignored.

Another thing that is also a factor, not only to drugs though but to general mental state of the individuals in our society, is that through increase of communication technology the individuals have become more and more alone. We all say its so fantasticly easy to stay in touch with people these days, we got cellphones, sms, email, chats ect ect but yet we are more alone then ever.

Why is this? Simply because we need human contact. The more we use technology to communicate with friends and family the less human contact we get and hence the sence of lonelieness increases.

These are a few things that imho should be factored in when working to prevent substance abuse.

Tex

Offline mora

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« Reply #125 on: March 16, 2005, 09:15:44 AM »
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Lazs2 you just showed how pointless moras argument was. The only way to stay clean is to keep clean.


Which argument was that?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #126 on: March 16, 2005, 10:25:49 AM »
tex.. I do not believe that nash or I could be of much help to addicts who are currently using and have no real desire to stop.

lazs

Offline Nash

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« Reply #127 on: March 16, 2005, 10:39:51 AM »
The question of how I ended up sticking that first needle into my arm is kind of irrelevant. It doesn't really matter, and I can barely remember it. It's as if you've been on a collision course with it for who knows how long... (a decade? Two decades?)... and it was only a matter of time. So what put me on that course is an interesting question, and one that I've thought about a lot... but it beats me if I know what it was.

So I don't know. Addicts become addicts long before they become addicts... iffin' ya know what I mean.

How'd I beat it? I beat it daily. That's not to say that I think about drugs or miss drugs or get the odd craving for drugs because I do not. It just means that I have to live a certain way, each day, in order for those thoughts/feelings not to come back.

I did detox for a week, and lived in a drug treatment center for 3 months. It was excellent. But I was well aware of the grim recovery statistics and knew that a large majority of the people in there were going to be on the wrong side of that dividing line; I was detrmined not to join them.

When I got out, I moved to a new city where I didn't know anyone. This was March of last year.

When I get hungry, I eat. When I'm tired I sleep. These may seem like trivial things, but they aren't to me. I eat 3+ meals a day, and sometimes me and lazs have breakfast together. :)

I bought a weight bench for excercise. I read a lot of books on spirituality... budhism, tao, and just general you name it spirituality stuff. I try to meditate... but that's still very hard. All that stuff was a huge void in my life... gigantic... and it's hilarious to me now that I didn't even recognize that.

Uhm... I don't try and make anything happen. I just let things happen. Forgiveness is an automatic reflex.

I try for healthy hobbies like fishing, and this summer I'm adding golf to the list. Gonna try to figure cooking out too if the appliances will relent and allow it.

There's a sort of obsessive compulsive element to addiction, which needs to be replaced with something healthy. So when I say fishing, I mean I am making all the lures and flies myself, and reading everything I can on it. I'll play eighteen holes of golf at the driving range, picking irons depending on how far I hit the last ball.

I suspect Lazs' dissembling, cleaning, reassembling and shooting guns falls into this category somehow. Heck, we all share it to some degree.

Uhm... I appreciate things.... everything.... now. The sun and the rain.

Basically, it's all really simple stuff... just normal, decent living. But you have no idea how alien it all is to the average addict.

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #128 on: March 16, 2005, 10:44:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mora
Which argument was that?


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You cannot slump all illegal drugs together. Some of them are highly addictive and some are non-addictive or mildly addictive. Most of them have positive and negative effects just like alcohol.


This argument. To me you gave an impression that you wanted to defend the use of mild drugs. Lazs story pointed out that there is no mild drug. Sure the physical symptoms may be lower than hard drugs.. But the point is once you choose the illegal substance road, you're on your way to the gutter. More importantly the fact that you chose tells you were going there before you even bought the first joint.

If you're prone for substance misuse, only way to avoid it is stay away from it. Completely.

Offline mora

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« Reply #129 on: March 16, 2005, 10:58:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
This argument. To me you gave an impression that you wanted to defend the use of mild drugs. Lazs story pointed out that there is no mild drug. Sure the physical symptoms may be lower than hard drugs.. But the point is once you choose the illegal substance road, you're on your way to the gutter. More importantly the fact that you chose tells you were going there before you even bought the first joint.

If you're prone for substance misuse, only way to avoid it is stay away from it. Completely.


I'm not "defending" anything. You said all the drugs are the same and I pointed otherwise.

And it's totally absurd to say that all people who try drugs end up in the gutter. We don't need to distort the facts, even if it's for a "good cause".

Yes, and addiction prone person is likely to get addicted to whatever he finds enjoyable.

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #130 on: March 16, 2005, 11:10:34 AM »
Quote

And it's totally absurd to say that all people who try drugs end up in the gutter.


In many ways the moment you try them, you're already there.

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #131 on: March 16, 2005, 12:10:58 PM »
Siaf

You are wrong on this one mate.

Many words of wisdom I have read here, but "your just say no" stance doesn't work. Drug use, addiction is a very complex issue.

It ain't about being better than the "junkie". Honestly on this issue I think we all ought to stand back sometimes and recognise "there but for the grace of god go I"

 

Thats all I'll say for now.

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #132 on: March 16, 2005, 12:24:32 PM »
You're entitled to your opinnion Sundancer.

The 'just say no' approach has worked excellently for me at least.

When I was younger I hanged out with people who used to drink a lot and later smoke hash etc. One girl from the group went real bad in the dope, she was committed to a mental institute for some time after she tripped out good on some junk.

Now she ironically works at the desk of a liquor store. :) At least she made it back to normal world.

But.. I had fair chance to try all sorts of substances - I kept out of it and I'm glad I did.

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #133 on: March 16, 2005, 12:31:19 PM »
It works until your life takes a serious downturn, or you never got a decent chance in the first place.

If your lucky enough never to have faced that then maybe. but most people in modern soc teeter on the edge at some point, and an awful lot are born into real sh*t.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #134 on: March 16, 2005, 12:40:23 PM »
Siaf... no offence, but your outlook seems very selfish.

You are saying, in essence, that what works for you should work for everyone else... simply because it works for you.

That's it in a nutshell, isn't it?