Author Topic: help from the 38 jocks out there please  (Read 1874 times)

Offline MaddogJoe

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 536
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« on: March 20, 2005, 09:01:41 PM »
OK, heres a film I'd like you 38 jocks to look at and then ya'll just let me have it!!  LOL!! First, its a 15 minute film ( 1.9 megs) and the only kill I get is a nice lag roll onto an La7's tail. I think I really surprised him there. I already know I have trouble hitting the side of a barn so we don't need to go there unless ya got a tip on how to learn to lead a target.

The main thing I'd like to know is am I using the plane to its advantages, and if not what could I have done better to use it better? I know I was being pretty cautious for most of the fights, but there were a lot of bad guys around. Never did see Filth sneak up on me till it was too late  grrrr! Was I being too easy on it? How hard would you guys push these fights in the same situation?

Any help would be great guys! Thanks



P38 film

Offline Slash27

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12795
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2005, 09:48:45 PM »
I already know I have trouble hitting the side of a barn so we don't need to go there unless ya got a tip on how to learn to lead a target.

   I stumbled across the lead computed gunsight option in the TA a few weeks ago. It really shed some light on gunnery for me. Its worth checking out if you havent done so.

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2005, 11:46:21 PM »
(typing my notes as Im viewing)

Not really a P38 issue, but watching your reaction to the C2, made me think you could work on judging other planes E.  In that instance your closure rate with the C2 was rather slow.  Your speed was threenintyish, which means the appearent slow closure rate was due to the C2's speed, not yours.  C2, tries to reverse sheds even more speed, hence C2 wasnt really something to react to unless he were pulling a nice preturn.

Coulda used flap looping over on the chog.  Not a critical thing, but it may have made for a better/longer shot opportunity.  I probably would have pressed the chog for at least 1 more pass (if not longer) since the 51 was many seconds away.

For the 2nd time I noticed you closed on a 51 and stayed pretty much in pure pursuit.  Most of the time in that sit they will either roll left or right, and start a turn that eventually goes under.   Consider diving slightly lower than them (lag pursuit) before you close to gun range.  You have both better visibility, and have your nose pointed where they are expected to go.

You get to the multi-bogies, and zoom over them to about 200mph, dive on the la7, start to zoom, decide to extent for a few, then climb for a few seconds.  Nothing wrong with that, but here is a tactic to consider.  If you zoom to 150mph, flap down, and continue a ROC 3 down to speeds as low as 110mph.  You now can look down, and the enemy with the E state nearest yours should stick out like a sore thumb.  Now instead of diving through the whole swarm, you just address those with the highest E as they climb above the swarm.

In the engagment with the 51s&C2, after the pass on the 51, I would have continued in the verticle as described above (because the slow C2 is trailing you).  Now here this 51 pretty much says "Im going over the top",  you move to lag pursuit.  In that case I would have went to lead.  The object is the same as earlier, even though the pursuit mode is different.  Im trying to get my nose to where I expect them to go.  Its much easier to wait for them to come to your nose than it is to try and chase them with it.

Bare in mind Im not saying there's anything wrong with your tactics.  You stayed out of trouble pretty well.  But you asked about using the 38s advantages.  You're not really pushing its verticle ablilities.  To do that, you gotta be willing to bank more of your speed into alt in some situations.

Offline WDOT4W

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 60
Oh Man!!...
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2005, 11:58:20 PM »
I can't wait to see some of these responses...

the 38 is an enigma to me... does nothing great but does everything good...

I gave up after all the accel stalls & deaths I suffered in it... at my own nEWb hands for shore...

Funny thing is I don't have too much trouble fighting them, (or don't seem to due to the lack of them in the MA) I mean, they're a great plane but they "are" limited ... but with the right driver, they're Uber!!

but I still wanna know about it & would love to get good at it...

Great thread & can't wait to read more & learn more...


WD!!

Offline MaddogJoe

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 536
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2005, 06:31:31 AM »
Thanks Murdr, always think of "vertical" in the nose up from here attitude, never concidering the nose down lag pursuit !! Too much thinking inside the box for me!! I know I have a big weakness there and don'y think "outside" too well, hence the thread  :)  OK so use zooms more to retain E, I get it, but its tuff to get my plane down to 110.... it just ain't right!  LOL!!  I understand banking the E, just got to get it throught the thick skull. Certainly gives me something to look at in the film again.

I have tried the "lead computing" site, but due to my limited time to fly hate wasting it chasing drones around! I believe I don't lead enough, so have to train myself to start shooting sooner. Is it better to train with the site, or real time in the MA?

Thanks again, and keep it coming!

Online Shane

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7666
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2005, 06:36:47 AM »
38's really benefit most from rudder pedals.

i like the 38, but with a twisty stick i can't get the most out of it.

maybe it's time to drag out my old tm analog pedals and see if i can get a usb adapter to make it work with win xp....
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline Balsy

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 717
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2005, 07:08:05 AM »
Maddog JOe,

Only way to get th P38 slow , I mean REAL slow in the verticle is to turn off combat trim...Ask Murder what speed to turn it off in to have trim set to "neutral".

Balsy

Offline Ecliptik

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 515
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2005, 10:28:28 AM »
I'd always recommend flying the 38 with combat trim off.  If you fly with combat trim on, then your vertical performance will be severely hampered as your elevators will automatically be trimmed up as you drop in speed, which you will have to fight unneccessarily as you zoom.

Since the 38 has no net torque, it is easy to manually trim.  Aileron and rudder trim should be in neutral positions at all times, the only thing you need to worry about is elevator.  Old rule of thumb is to keep the red line of the elevator trim indicator lined up with the bottom of the letter "L" beside it.  This should keep you level at about 300 mph.  You may have to trim down a little to keep the nose down in dives, but otherwise keep it there.   You'll find yourself staying much more stable in pure vertical fights, and your handling in flat turning stall fights will remain consistent rather than constantly change as the trim changes with speed.

As Balsy said it's the only way to really take advantage of the lack of torque to hang on your props.  It's possible to get down to 0 mph and fall backwards momentarily.

Something advanced to try if you feel like showboating:  Differential throttle control at the top of a rope to snap the nose around so fast you have bullets flying at your target before he even knows which way you're pointed. :)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 10:34:29 AM by Ecliptik »

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2005, 01:05:12 PM »
I was trying to think of an uploaded film example zooming to slow speeds, so I looked at lolkill.  At around 3:00 I zoom down to 55mph to drop down on a huri.  At 7:15 I zoom down to 47mph defensively to stay clear of a d9 and spit that can reach me, but cannot match my E.  At 10:15 I loop over on multis down to 37mph.  Even my immelmans where I casually turn back towards the fight in the film bring my speeds down near 100.

Basically though, I zoom and approach on top of everyone, and by the time I drop to their alt, Im too fast to keep up with.

Also I looked at a few films and found this vert55.ahf.  I get down to 15 and 25mph.  Zooming in on the trim, i noticed I stayed trimmed to the bottom of the "L" at speeds from 15-490mph, which is normally where I have it trimmed.

Offline MaddogJoe

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 536
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2005, 04:31:59 PM »
Ya I fly without combat trim, and have been that way for a few months. I did notice right away that the plane handles much better at the top of a zoom, for that matter most plane work better with out the combat trim on IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I can get my 38 down to 50 with ease, but in the MA life is speed in most cases, that's why I say "it just ain't right!" :) It goes against the grain to go slow. I know I'm storing "E" due to the zoom, but its tuff to "allow" myself to get slow.

I'll check out the film you linked Murdr, and I'll get back to ya with any questions. Printed your report on my film and will watch it again while reading to see what your talking about.

Thanks again.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2005, 05:37:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Balsy
Maddog JOe,

Only way to get th P38 slow , I mean REAL slow in the verticle is to turn off combat trim...Ask Murder what speed to turn it off in to have trim set to "neutral".

Balsy



You should always keep Combat Trim off when flying the P-38.  It hinders more than it helps and renders the dive flaps useless.

The approximate neutral position for the elevators is on the _ part of the L in where it says ELV in the elevator trim indicator.  That's the neutral setting for 300mph IAS.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Slash27

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12795
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2005, 07:17:37 PM »
have tried the "lead computing" site, but due to my limited time to fly hate wasting it chasing drones around!


Its enabled in the training arena aswell as offline. I got alot more out of it shooting people instead of drones:D

Offline MaddogJoe

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 536
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2005, 07:33:48 PM »
OK Murdr, I watched the film a bunch more times going over your notes as I was watching. I see where you were talking about the different pursuits. Thinking ahead, and putting myself in a position to have an easier move to get my shot, certainly make sense.

I think , after watching the film a bunch more that I was VERY worried about that 51 coming back and cherry pickin me... not that any one flying a 51 would do that  ;) The first time the C2 came in I was just closing the distance a bit to force him to turn ands burn a bit more "E". Later when I lit him up on the rope, it was all I could do NOT to follow him down to finish him off !!  dang that 51 !!

I watched the films you posted. Question... I have a hard time telling, do you drop the throttles down at the top of your zoom, and if you do when? If not, why? When you have someone on the hook in a rope, do you "coast" down to them, or do you throttle down to them, and why?

Thanks again!

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2005, 09:21:49 PM »
I usually keep my throttle full in a zoom when I'm roping the other player until I go over the top.  Depending on the closure rate of the other plane, I'll either chop my throttle going over the top of my zoom so I don't accelerate too quickly coming down.  I'll usually do it when I see that the player still has some energy, so I kind of "float" down and give him a chance to burn more E and rope him.  If there are multiple bogies in the area, I'll keep my throttle open so I can build as much E as possible coming down from my zoom to maintain my energy advantage.  If I blow the rope the first time because I zoomed by too fast on the first time, no worries because if the guy fell for the rope once, he's gonna fall for it a second time.


I would've watched your film but unfortunately, I can't watch them.  My film viewer always locks up with a few seconds after the movie starts.  But Murdr probably said what I was going to say and probably much more clearer than I could.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
help from the 38 jocks out there please
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2005, 10:28:55 PM »
Almost always Im full throttle all the way through.  I want all the E I can get.  Im not getting slow for the sake of getting slow.  Im taking as much E from the speed colum and putting it in the alt colum as I can.  38 can stall out of the verticle and recover controls faster than other planes.  If I can get them to walk into that condition, great.  If not, Im still on top and can pretty much dictate the fight from that position.  While in the verticle, Im guiding my nose so when it does stall, it does it the way I want.

There are a couple of objectives using the verticle, and its not always a rope per se.  Its about timing and positioning.  Here are a couple of screen shots from vert55.  Look at the difference in position between entering and leaving at different speeds.


Often times you end up in a better position when you can reverse without traveling through a long sweeping turn.



Two exceptions on the throttle:  To delay a merge.  If I see them setting up to HO when I come back down, Ill close the throttles as soon as my nose starts to fall.  They continue to look for me to come screaming back down into a HO, but instead I just hang there a few seconds till their nose drops.

The other exception is if I see Im going to get shot, I might throttle back 1 engine, so the other engine can whip me around in the stall.