Who Gets the Kill?

[Howitzer]

Last night I was trying out a G6 with machine guns and taters (30mm).  There were 3 guys from the assassins a little below me in P40Es.  A N1k passed between us, and one of them (I think it was BigMax) landed about 5 sprites on a passing shot.  Then the N1k pulled up and I was presented a straight 6 shot where I saw 2 30mm bursts and the plane exploded.  Before this happened there was no visible damage to the plane, and it logged an assist for me and a kill for Max.  I've noticed this alot flying with the 30mm guns, last night I had 5 assists and 2 kills with 63 rounds of ammo.  I thought it was who did the most damage, but it seems like the one who makes the first pass and lands a few shots is getting the kill.  Is it because the 30mm only takes 1 hit to kill?  

I really don't mind either way because my gunnery has improved using this plane, but was wondering if anyone else had seen behavior like this.  It really surprised both me and Max at the time.

Thanks for any discussion.

[Manedew]

not sure exactly how kill credit works... but here's nice tater lobing film

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/814_1111043299_g6taters.ahf


I almost always get the kill with taters ....

almost always.....

sometimes with an engine hit, fighters will live through a tater hit ... this is rare and only on engine hits in my experiance.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Howitzer
Last night I was trying out a G6 with machine guns and taters (30mm).  There were 3 guys from the assassins a little below me in P40Es.  A N1k passed between us, and one of them (I think it was BigMax) landed about 5 sprites on a passing shot.  Then the N1k pulled up and I was presented a straight 6 shot where I saw 2 30mm bursts and the plane exploded.  Before this happened there was no visible damage to the plane, and it logged an assist for me and a kill for Max.  I've noticed this alot flying with the 30mm guns, last night I had 5 assists and 2 kills with 63 rounds of ammo.  I thought it was who did the most damage, but it seems like the one who makes the first pass and lands a few shots is getting the kill.  Is it because the 30mm only takes 1 hit to kill?  

I really don't mind either way because my gunnery has improved using this plane, but was wondering if anyone else had seen behavior like this.  It really surprised both me and Max at the time.

Thanks for any discussion.

Just a theory since I had the same issue.  
Lets say that a 30mm cases X amount of damage.  I think that that plane had a little more than X on it when you hit, you only get an assist.  Clear as mud?

[Howitzer]

So say he hit the plane with 10 rounds.  I came along and smacked it with one 30mm which caused a bunch of damage but still less than his 10 50cals.  The second 30mm hits but it only takes 1/4 of the full damage caused by this 30mm to make the plane explode.  If the first shot plus this 1/4 damage doesn't equal total damage of his 10 shots, but if the full damage of both my 30mm does more damage than his 10 shots, would he still get the kill?

Your gonna have to read that last line at least twice  

[thrila]

How are kills awarded against gv's?

I would like to know because players will often pump .50 and 20mm into a panzers seemingly doing no damage.  I come along in a hurri2d and take out his engine, on a 2nd pass i hit the turret and the panzer blows up.  Yet often i'll not be awarded the kill.  Are kills on gv's awarded the same way?  I didn't put the most joules into the panzer, but i certainly did the most damage (or rather the only damage).
It seems unfair that someone can pump 20mm into a panzer, do no visible damage, but get the kill.

[Schatzi]

Dont know, i always thought the one with the most damage gets the kill.

So i.e. if you put tons of 303 spread all over a plane with no damage except the holes in the wings and someone kills the plane with one bullet to the pilot, the 303 guy gets the kill - more damage points.

Its unfair sometimes. Happened to get kills awarded in Hurri IIc i didnt deserve. Also got only assists that were kills, cause i landed a pilot kill with a few 20mm.

I think youre right Howitzer. You just might have landed a pilot kill with that 30mm bullet of yours. It just didnt equal the .50 damage done.


edit - just a thought: maybe its just that about 10 cal.50 equal one 30mm. in case of the cal .50 they are spread out, the one 30mm bullet concentrated snaps off the wing.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Come on Howitzer, you alone have participated in at least 2 or 3 discussions on this subject where HT answered the question.  

Originally posted by HiTech It who does the most damage, but damage is not always seen visualy.

As an example lets say 1 50cal = 3 303. If all shots landed at point blank, and if first someone landed 4 303 on the outer wing, and it didn't come off, then some one landed 1 50 cal on the same wing and it came off, the 4 303's would get the kill.

Just because you saw a piece come off, does not meen you did the most damage to the plane.


Also you do get points for assists.

HiTech

And then this one.......

The system now awards the kill to the person who does the most damage, not how many pings. There is damage done even if the plane is still flying. If you got an assist, it meens that some one else did more damage to the plane than you did, you just happen to put in the last bullet.

And here, on the subject of GV damage..................

........... on one had you are stating you want it realalistic , on the other hand you are stating you wan't it balanced to game play, i.e. you state that a 50cal should not be able to kill a tank, well if in real life it could,even thow it wasn't done much, what do we do?

For instance right now the most complaints I see on the damage modeling with vehicles is quite francly do to the more realistic aspects of the damage model.


People complain that they put 20 ap rounds into a tank and it dosn't die, yet they get killed with 1 round.
This is completly realistic. what people are not considering is where and at what angles they hit the tank, if your round isn't penatrating the armor, more rounds won't either.

I was in a tank battle the other day at a range of about 1500 to 1800 yards. Before I stoped to shoot i turned my tank directly at the other tank. He was stoped , and shooting out the right side of the tank. He took out my track, but thats all he could do, i on the other hand blew him up with 2 hits. He comes on the radio complaining how the damage model is porked because he hit me quite a few times and couldn't kill me. Well guys this is what pure realism produces, his shots were all hitting in my strongest armor, mine hit him on his side armor. Mine penatrated, his did not.

Now look at an m3, if you put an ap round into the side of the truck, odds are in real life it will just put a hole in the sheet metal and continue on.

So once again ill ask what you guys desire, not so much what we will implement, but on what basis do we start this discusion on.

Understand that if you make sweeping statments like a 50cal should not be able to kill a tank, you are in no way on the realism side, unless you can show that 50 cals will not penatrate any armor on the vehicle in descusion.

Understand also that if you wish to use antidotal evendence you are also comming down on the game play side because you wish to change the damage to match uses vs match what could be done.

Please don't let this discusion get into a flame war, this isn't a contest to see who wins, this is a descusion to figure out how we wan't things to work.

For me im just playing more of a modirator function, pointing out what different desires entail.


HiTech

And this one also, on GV's...............

This is not how things work, with GV armor a bullet either penitraits or not, looses energy if it goes threw ,then strikes or dosn't strike somthing else.

If a bullet can't benitrate the armor you can shoot somthing all day and no damage will be done.

Also understand there are 3 damage models in AH.

1 for buidlings.
1 for planes.
1 for GV's.

The GV model is the most complex and will produce the most random results do to it's detail.

As to damage models being subjective, they always will be, things like armor pentrating , do not need to be subjective, but what the bullet does after penitraion are very subective. Things like how many 50cals can kill a track are very subjective.

And again......

It's by total damage inflicted not by bullet count or components destroyed.

Any way tac my basic premis on kill awarding is he who did the most work and is still living get's the kill.

This is just a sprinkling of the number of times HT has addressed these questions.  That doesnt even begin to count the number of posts from individuals on the subject.

[Schatzi]

Who ever said life was fair???????????

[john9001]

me not want win war, me want kills. me want be top gun.

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by Manedew
not sure exactly how kill credit works... but here's nice tater lobing film

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/814_1111043299_g6taters.ahf


I almost always get the kill with taters ....

almost always.....

sometimes with an engine hit, fighters will live through a tater hit ... this is rare and only on engine hits in my experiance.

Not to get off subject here, but nice dodging, rolloing, evading, shooting, killing!    saw one assist at end was that when using the BB's?

[humble]

the confusion comes from the "5 or 6" hit sprites already landed. If those were fired somewhere near convergance then you might have 100+ .50 cal strikes...or you might have 40. I've always figured roughly 5 bullets per gun per sprite at converance since I can cut a plane in half at convergance with a -1 hog with a tap of trigger (not always of course). In a 6 x .50 setup that many hit sprites can be an awful lot of damage...I've looked at my plane flying with no damage (control D)but seen multiple holes on both sides from just one or two shots...invariably the next guy who lays the wood on shoots the plane to pieces...but almost never gets the kill if the other guy is still up....

[wetrat]

It's possible for 20mm planes to do more "damage" than what 1 or 2 30mm's will do, but this "damage" is spread out over the plane, and just softens everything up, not causing any "real" damage. 30mm's apply enough damage to one spot to break it off immediately. In short: when you're ganging with taters, you're just as likely to get an assist as you are with 20mm's.

[Manedew]

ya spray'd a 205 a bit with 151..... if I remember the film correctly


Tnx for quoteing HT... explained alot ..... takes assumtions I had out .

when you Assume you make an bellybutton of yourself

[StarOfAfrica2]

I have plenty of practice making an bellybutton of myself.  

[Howitzer]

Star, I know I have, and I remember those posts, but thank you for looking them up and posting them here.  I had my doubts when it was explained then, and I think I still do.  I thought since many things were revamped in the previous patches, that maybe this was looked into.

I guess what I'm saying is that Max said he had very little 50 cal hits in the plane, and I know I landed 2 30mm, and it just seems like any way you shake it, the 30mm should have done more damage although I can't prove it.  Then to rack up assist after assist it was almost looking like the volume of hits was a factor even though I know its not supposed to be.  

Just wanted others thoughts on it... I'm not screaming for a fix or anything.