Author Topic: Father of the Musclecar dies.  (Read 1627 times)

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2005, 04:13:04 PM »
As awsome as the 409 Chevies were they were not muscle cars.

Awsome cars yes, Muscle no.

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2005, 04:14:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Good gosh rpm, get that ratty thing out of this musclecar discussion.
 



LOL Skuzzy! Its a mopar, it prolly looked just like that the day it drove off the show room floor!:D

Offline 2stony

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« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2005, 04:27:42 PM »
Originally posted by GtoRa2:
Quote
As awsome as the 409 Chevies were they were not muscle cars.


     So a 62-64 Bel Air or Biscayne with a hi-po 409 with radio and heater delete is not a muscle car? I think you need to re-think this.

:rolleyes:

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2005, 04:34:34 PM »
No, you need to read the post made here about what a muscle car is.

Unless I am mistaken and the full size chevies, like the impala Bel air and biscane are not FULL SIZE Chevies.


Quote
A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.



The cars with Radio and heater delete were factory race cars. Meant to be sold to racers.

Offline indy007

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« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2005, 04:55:11 PM »
Wow. These cars were considered classics before I was even born. You people are old. :p



Hey, don't get upset though. For pretty much my entire life... the most common car on the road has been 4 cylinder Camry's.

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2005, 05:01:26 PM »
Thats ok, the world just get worse the older it gets!

Offline 2stony

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« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2005, 05:15:34 PM »
Originally posted by GtoRa2:

Quote
impala Bel air and biscane are not FULL SIZE Chevies.


     But they are "full size" Chevys. The only difference between the three is chrome, options and tail lights. They have the same frame, wheel base, etc. There were no Chevy's made from 61-65 that were larger/heavier than these.
     Besides, with the same driver, the 409 would beat the GTO anytime(both stock of course).

;)

P.S. As for race cars, the "normal" Bel Airs and Biscaynes were the same except for the "deletes". I would, however, consider the ones with the Z-11 motors to be "race cars".

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2005, 05:24:08 PM »
Right and you still missed the point, a muscle car is a mid size car like a chevelle, torino, GTO charger etc.

The full size cars like the imapalla, catalina, galaxy etc, as fast as they were were not muscle cars they were to big to apeal to the "youth" and to pricey.



Thats why the muscle car era started with the GTO in 64 and not the 409 chevy, in 60 or 61.


Quote
Besides, with the same driver, the 409 would beat the GTO anytime(both stock of course).


That is so much BS as well. It would depend on the options on both cars.  the 64/65 Goats were pretty light, with few options and tri power the they could come in around 3300 pounds.  Ordered right they would give most 409s a damn good race if not beat them.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 05:26:34 PM by GtoRA2 »

Offline 2stony

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« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2005, 06:21:01 PM »
Quote
were to big to apeal to the "youth"


      So the "409" wasn't made to appeal to youth? What song came out first(because I don't know), "She's So Fine" or "Little GTO"?
      I don't care what the criteria is for a "muscle car", they are what they are. If "mid size" is the criteria, then the Hemis wouldn't be considered muscle cars either. Or any of the Mopars with 440s, etc. Muscle car is an adjective, not a precise description as you state.
     As for the options, 389 w/tri- power won't stand up to a Bel Air with a 409 hp 409 cu in. If I'm not mistaken, the 64-65 GTOs biggest engine was the tri-power version. I owned both types of cars, and the 409 was definately faster, even though it weighed more.
     I raced a 65' Corvette with a hi-po 396 and stayed dead even with him in my 4,000 lb. 65' Impala 409. I'm sure the Vette weighed less than my Impala. We both had 4-speeds.
     Ball is in your court!



;)

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2005, 07:21:15 PM »
Dude
 Midsize was not engine size but car size. You are aware thet a 409 impalla as cool as it is, is about the size of an Forestal class CV?

 let me make this clear.

 A: they were big.
 B: they were exspensive compared to the Mid size Cars like the chevelle, GTO, Charger road runner etc.
 C: The 409 was rare most SS impallas has 283 or 327s in them. (I think, but I am not expert on early 60s non musclecars :)  )


 The Musclecar came about when John D and his advertising guy Jim Wangers decided to put a 389 V8 in a lemans/tempest body, a mid size car.

Mopar came back with the Road runnerm GTX and charger, all muscle cars cause they packed BIG v8s into Mid size cars.

as long as it was a big V8 in a Mid size Cars  it was a muscle car, camaros and Mustangs are pony cars and Full size cars with big motors are fast fullsize cars but not muscle cars.

From 61 to 64 how many 409 chevies got sold? I would be floored if it came close to 30,000 of them.


It does not mater if your 409 could beat a F-16 in a drag, it is not, will not, nor will it ever be a musclecar.  It was not just about speed, it was about apealing to a market that was either not interested in big cars, or could not afford them or both.  

Now If you want to keep thinking your 409 is a musclecar and the fastest thing on 4 wheels thats fine, but you are wrong on the muscle car part.

Most young adults from the time wanted something smaller and sporty like a GTO and not a land  boat like dad or granddad drove like an imapalla.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 07:30:18 PM by GtoRA2 »

Offline 2stony

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« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2005, 07:33:27 PM »
I don't care what John D. and his buddies "decided" a  muscle car was "supposed" to be "Dude". Small, medium or big cars with a high horsepower motor are "muscle cars" "Dude".
     Toe mah toe, toe may toe, it's all in what you want to call it "Dude". I can't believe you're sticking to some criteria that someone decided on "Dude".
     You're probably one of those guys that "goes by the book" and is afraid to "step out". It's ok, you can call those "big cars" muscle cars and no one will think badly of you.

:rolleyes:

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2005, 07:38:12 PM »
If ignorance is bliss you must be one happy guy.

So what other words do you define your own way?

But hey if calling your invincable 409 a Musclecar is so important you, more power to you.

Offline NUTTZ

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« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2005, 08:12:33 PM »
409 was a good engine, not going to take that away from it. But if you wanna compare very rare stuff a 61 catalina w/ the 421 was the fastest car in it's class.

I would still take the GTO w/ the 389 or 400 or 68' ram air 400 over the 409.
Right now the 65 i posted in this thread sports a 455.
My convertable still has the 389 tri power although it's in a thousand parts.
The GTO also had the thinest metal body parts , thats why they rust out so fast, I once lost a whole tool box threw a hole in the trunk.

Funny my 65 convertable is as long as my moms old lincoln, mid sized my ass:)

P.S. that is a Coors light in my hand, I have to watch my girlish figure:)
NUTTZ
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 08:14:38 PM by NUTTZ »

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2005, 08:19:30 PM »
Nuttz
 Was the 61 Cat, the car you could order with a swiss cheese frame, and aluminum front fenders hood and drums?

Offline NUTTZ

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« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2005, 08:22:53 PM »
whooops,, i FUBAREDD,  It was a 62 Catalina the one with the curved half circle tailights. I could ask my dad, he had a 62 catalina w/ a 421 4 speed, you could hear him coming home 5 blocks away.

NUTTZ

Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Nuttz
 Was the 61 Cat, the car you could order with a swiss cheese frame, and aluminum front fenders hood and drums?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 08:27:01 PM by NUTTZ »