Author Topic: Its not bad being a minority  (Read 3091 times)

Offline Raider179

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Its not bad being a minority
« Reply #195 on: March 28, 2005, 01:50:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird
[B The fact is the neutologist they hired thought she responded to them as well. Dr. Cheshire thought she responded to them as well, and the discussion could benefit from functional imaging.

 [/B]


Looks like Dr. Chesire is a quack.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/03/25/schiavo.doctors.ap/index.html


"Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her," Cheshire said in the affidavit.

But the first part of that sentence, in fact, "starts to meet the criteria for vegetative state," said Dr. Gene Sung, director of the neurocritical care and stroke section of the University of Southern California.

Sung, who has not been involved with the case, said of Cheshire that "unfortunately his feelings, and possibly his religious beliefs, are affecting his medical decision." Cheshire is listed as director of biotech ethics for the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, which notes on its Web site that it was founded by Christian bioethicists.

Sung said the original diagnosis was based on repeated examinations by "very distinguished neurologists" and he said he is as comfortable with that diagnosis as he can be without examining Schiavo himself.

Dr. Roger Albin, a professor of neurology at the University of Michigan who also was not involved in the Schiavo case, agreed. "I don't think there's any reason to doubt the diagnosis. ...I don't think her evaluation could have been done better."

He also said he's not aware of any evidence that a person could emerge from years in a persistent vegetative state and enter a minimally conscious state, especially in a case such as Schiavo's, where blood flow to the brain had been temporarily cut off in 1990.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #196 on: March 28, 2005, 01:59:38 AM »
Sympathy is one thing.

Empathy is simular, but different. Because with empathy, you dive into someone else's shoes.

But maybe you don't really know the owner of the shoes. And maybe the shoes don't fit.

Arrogance, piety and righteousness is something else. It is saying "Those shoes must be uncomfortable because they would be uncomfortable on me."

You jokers wanna get in her face, and presume to tell her that what she wanted really isn't what she wanted. Because... well damn, I wouldn't want that.

Tough cookies.

She did.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #197 on: March 28, 2005, 02:21:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Sympathy is one thing.

Empathy is simular, but different. Because with empathy, you dive into someone else's shoes.

But maybe you don't really know the owner of the shoes. And maybe the shoes don't fit.

Arrogance, piety and righteousness is something else. It is saying "Those shoes must be uncomfortable because they would be uncomfortable on me."

You jokers wanna get in her face, and presume to tell her that what she wanted really isn't what she wanted. Because... well damn, I wouldn't want that.

Tough cookies.

She did.


You jokers? "get in her face" ?? What are you talking about?

You have no idea what she would have wanted and neither does anyone else, so get off YOUR righteousness and arrogance.

My stance is simple: No one knows what she would have wanted.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #198 on: March 28, 2005, 02:28:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
My stance is simple: No one knows what she would have wanted.


Then you would be wrong.

This very thing has been ruled on.

Over and over.

Unless you were hiding under a bed when husband and wife talked about it. Unless you were perched in a tree when sister and sister talked about it.

People know.

Not me... I don't know. I don't know these people. I wasn't there.

But the people that were around... They knew. Testafied to it. The Judge took it all in, and went with them.

Then another judge did.

Then another Judge did.

Ad nausium.

But... you don't buy it?

Life aint fair, Nuke.

Offline Silat

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Re: Its not bad being a minority
« Reply #199 on: March 28, 2005, 09:04:40 PM »
This case has been in the courts for years. The courts have ruled that this poor woman did not want to live as a vegetable with no hope ( on this planet ) of recovery. All Drs appointed by the courts over the last 7 to 15 years have found that there is no hope of her brain growing back.

It is about her wishes being honored and nothing more.

We are a country of laws.
We are a country where control of our own bodies is still ours. Well at least for the time being it is. Many in this country want to take that right away from us.

It is a sad sad situation. But it is only one sad situation in a world of many.
+Silat
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"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #200 on: March 29, 2005, 12:54:40 AM »
Airhead,

Thanks for your kind words and encouragement. There are many posters here who I enjoy reading as well and I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to interact in this forum. Because of my schedule, I don't get as much opportunity as I once did to debate and discuss with people who hold radically different worldviews.

This may sound odd, but as I was preparing to preach on the subject of the Christian response to Euthanasia (which was a decision that discussion on this board helped me to firm up, rather than putting it off) I was greatly assisted in thinking through the issues by some of the discussion here. Anyway, here is one of the less blatantly Christian clips from what I preached. I post it because we don't seem to really appreciate the roots of the modern euthanasia movement or understand the critical ethical difference between turning off a lifesupport machine and starving someone to death. [some of this has already appeared here in different formats, my apologies for that]

"What is Euthanasia anyway? That as I found out is an interesting question to ask. Because as I was doing research for this sermon, I noticed that neither the word nor the practice of Euthanasia occurred in any of my ethical commentaries published prior to the mid-20th century, it wasn't even listed in Webster's massive 1913 dictionary, the first place I found it listed was a Merriam Webster's dictionary from the 50's. The word Euthanasia is a greek compound word – Eu meaning "good" and Thanatos meaning "death" – therefore "the good death."  The term was first coined and widely used by the Nazis in the late 30's in connection with the T4 "Euthanasia" program. Now what the T4 program initially did was take senile adults, handicapped children and infants, the retarded, the brain damaged, the incurably insane and put them to death entirely disregarding the wishes of the patients or the family. Sometimes this was done by injection, occasionally by carbon monoxide gas but usually they were simply starved. The program was run and administered not by the SS, but by Doctors. They justified their actions at the time, by describing it as "Therapeutic Killing." They acknowledged that they were killing, but held that they were keeping their hippocratic oaths because this was killing as healing.

Now they did that on two different levels: The first was by saying that they were healing because the people they were killing were in essence a sickness in the body of humanity – let me give you an example of that. Robert J. Lifton in his book the Nazi Doctors wrote of the following recollection of survivor physician Dr. Ella Lingens-Reiner, who pointed to the chimneys of a death camp and asked a Nazi doctor, Fritz Klein, "How can you reconcile that with your Hippocratic Oath as a doctor?" He answered, "Of course, I am a doctor and I want to preserve life. And out of respect for human life, I would remove a gangrenous appendix from a diseased body. The Jew is the gangrenous appendix in the body of mankind." According to their philosophy a healthy and vigorous humanity had no place for these people, they simply weakened society, drained its resources, therefore they had to be removed.

The second level was by saying that by doing so they were healing by ending suffering, in fact their original orders as given by Hitler were to "provide "final medical assistance" to those judged "incurable" by physicians who were authorized to end their suffering" They also often appealed to the "quality of life" argument, i.e. that the quality of life of the people they were putting to death was unacceptably low.

So the three main arguments advanced for therapeutic killing by these physicians were: that it served the greater good of humanity, that it ended suffering, and that it was the only solution to an unacceptably low quality of life.

Surprisingly the allies didn't buy any of these rationalizations and after the War, a "doctors trial" was held at Nuremberg for 23 Nazi doctors involved with the T4 program. Six of these doctors, including Karl Brandt, Hitler's Doctor and the head of the T4 program, were hanged and five given life sentences.

Because of all this following the Second World War, Europe had to step back and reassess the state of ethics in medicine, they particularly wanted to create a code that would prevent the recurrence of eugenics and euthanasia as acceptable practices within the medical community. The result was the Geneva Code (1948) of the World Medical Association which was written specifically to guard against the "ethics" of the Nazi doctors.

The WMA was for many years absolutely opposed to any reintroduction of discussions of doctors terminating the lives of their patients regardless of their condition. They maintained that the role of a doctor must always be to preserve life, never to take it. However, as time moved on, those safeguards were progressively weakened:

Tthe first domino to fall was doctors not artificially sustaining life, in other words if a person's body was only being kept alive through the functioning of a life support system, and there was "no hope" of recovery, it was acceptable to pull the plug with the permission of the next of kin. Strictly speaking that is not yet Euthanasia.

The next domino to fall was allowing someone to choose not to continue medical treatment if there was no hope of recovery and thus allowing them to die of natural causes instead of prolonging the process. This is still not yet Euthanasia.

The next step however, was in allowing doctors to assist patients deemed to be terminal to die, either by ceasing to feed them or by administering a lethal dose of drugs. This is Euthanasia: Therapeutic Killing to end suffering.

After that the floodgates literally opened in Europe: physicians killing those in pain, but not necessarily terminal if the patient so desired, Physicians killing the mentally incompetent with degenerative diseases with the permission of their next of kin, and Physicians killing infants with serious birth defects including severe retardation with the parents permission.

The current high water marks are in Scandanavia and Holland, where Physicians after conferring together may now elect to terminate cognitive patients with degenerative diseases and infants with severe birth defects without the permission of the patient or the next of kin. This is Involuntary Euthanasia, and is exactly what we put those Nazi doctors to death for in 1945. So either we were wrong then or we are wrong now. If we were wrong then, we owe the families of those doctors an apology.

Incidentally the current battle in Europe is over whether doctors may terminate the depressed, but otherwise healthy, if the patient so requests. If the current trajectory holds true, this will be approved and has the potential to progress to doctors terminating the depressed without their permission on quality of life grounds."


- Seagoon
« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 01:07:51 AM by Seagoon »
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #201 on: March 29, 2005, 01:05:22 AM »
Just a couple of random thoughts before beddy-byes:

1) If we attempted to put convicted killers to death via a two week long process of starvation and dehydration we would have the ACLU in a furor over such horrendously "cruel and inhuman punishment." Let's face it, we wouldn't even be allowed to discuss it as an option.

2) In all the accounts I've read of men starving to death or dying of dehydration, I've read of them being maddened by thirst, so desperate to eat that they'll resort to canibalism, every description I can think of or recall speaks of hideous pain and suffering.

If I had any abilities as an artist whatsoeve I'd illustrate the above point with a cartoon of 8 obviously starving men in a lifeboat. The captain asks, "how are you doing lads" and the answers vary between "Euphoric!" and "I've never been so at peace, sir!" and "I no longer feel any hunger or thirst!" and "We ought to have done this sooner!"

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #202 on: March 29, 2005, 01:21:25 AM »
How ironic...  Tom Delay refuses to talk about pulling the plug on his dad in 1988.  

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB02JH1U6E.html
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Offline Silat

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« Reply #203 on: March 29, 2005, 02:25:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Just a couple of random thoughts before beddy-byes:



Good thoughts.
But the issue here is whether someone has the right to decide there own fate. You must read all the court papers in the timeline of this case to see that Terri didnt want to "live" like this.
Deciding who lives (And I do believe it is a womans choice to decide what to do about life inside her skin ) and dies is solely the right of the individual.
Nazi Drs who killed and maimed innocents, whom had the ability to choose, were criminals according to all the standards of modern civilization.
+Silat
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"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #204 on: March 29, 2005, 10:39:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Just a couple of random thoughts before beddy-byes:

1) If we attempted to put convicted killers to death via a two week long process of starvation and dehydration we would have the ACLU in a furor over such horrendously "cruel and inhuman punishment." Let's face it, we wouldn't even be allowed to discuss it as an option.

2) In all the accounts I've read of men starving to death or dying of dehydration, I've read of them being maddened by thirst, so desperate to eat that they'll resort to canibalism, every description I can think of or recall speaks of hideous pain and suffering.

If I had any abilities as an artist whatsoeve I'd illustrate the above point with a cartoon of 8 obviously starving men in a lifeboat. The captain asks, "how are you doing lads" and the answers vary between "Euphoric!" and "I've never been so at peace, sir!" and "I no longer feel any hunger or thirst!" and "We ought to have done this sooner!"

- SEAGOON


Dont forget to give them 50 mg of morphine. Tends to ease the pain and make you sleep a lot.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #205 on: March 29, 2005, 11:32:06 AM »
Hello Raider,

Ah yes, as reported by the AP:

"Family supporters said Schiavo's breathing became increasingly labored during the day. An attorney for the Schindlers, Barbara Weller, said hospice workers began giving morphine to Schiavo to ease pain brought on by her body's failure."

Curiousier and curiousier, because USA Today glibly reported on the 23rd that "...neurologists on Wednesday said that based on court findings of her condition, her body gradually will shut down in a painless process that will lead to death." because, as Neurologists note patients in a PVS are totally non-responsive and feel neither hunger, thirst, or pain and as George Felos has told us repeatedly Terri "cannot feel pain."

Why the Morphine then? The Hospice staff and even our own esteemed  Raider have conceded this is "to ease the pain" but those in a coma or a full PVS do not require it. The fact is that the pathetic court findings (which consisted of the one CT test and "expert testimony" that Michael's legal team managed to get entered, all findings to the contrary being suppressed) do not reflect her true condition, and when even Jesse Jackson is able to comprehend that we have something seriously wrong.

This is a Therapeutic Killing due to an assessment of an unacceptably low standard of life, and even those in favor of it have noted how painful it is. Even assisted suicide advocates, usually make the point that the means of death should be "quick and painless." One could almost wish that the Euthanasia culture, which claims to believe that being in pain is in and of itself a terrible evil, had insisted that she receive 500mg of Morphine rather than simply 50. To do otherwise merely adds torture to the scenario.
 
- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #206 on: March 29, 2005, 02:26:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Hello Raider,

Ah yes, as reported by the AP:

"Family supporters said Schiavo's breathing became increasingly labored during the day. An attorney for the Schindlers, Barbara Weller, said hospice workers began giving morphine to Schiavo to ease pain brought on by her body's failure."

Curiousier and curiousier, because USA Today glibly reported on the 23rd that "...neurologists on Wednesday said that based on court findings of her condition, her body gradually will shut down in a painless process that will lead to death." because, as Neurologists note patients in a PVS are totally non-responsive and feel neither hunger, thirst, or pain and as George Felos has told us repeatedly Terri "cannot feel pain."

Why the Morphine then? The Hospice staff and even our own esteemed  Raider have conceded this is "to ease the pain" but those in a coma or a full PVS do not require it. The fact is that the pathetic court findings (which consisted of the one CT test and "expert testimony" that Michael's legal team managed to get entered, all findings to the contrary being suppressed) do not reflect her true condition, and when even Jesse Jackson is able to comprehend that we have something seriously wrong.

This is a Therapeutic Killing due to an assessment of an unacceptably low standard of life, and even those in favor of it have noted how painful it is. Even assisted suicide advocates, usually make the point that the means of death should be "quick and painless." One could almost wish that the Euthanasia culture, which claims to believe that being in pain is in and of itself a terrible evil, had insisted that she receive 500mg of Morphine rather than simply 50. To do otherwise merely adds torture to the scenario.
 
- SEAGOON


first I guess I should say I believe she can feel pain/discomfort. I believe that is one of the primary feelings the body can have.
Those are physical responses not mental.  But that being said, none of that has anything to do with this.

Seagoon she didnt want to be like that. And I agree with your low standard of life comment. That is exactly the kind of life she choose to not have if it came down to it. She didn't want to be fed through a tube. Is it really a killing if that is what she wanted? Isn't it really merciful if those are her wishes?

She made a concious decision to be "let go" if it ever came to it. There have been several witnesses that have nothing to gain from saying she said it and everything to lose. Her best friend and uncle are why I believe she said it. They testified or swore or whatever that she told them. That is good enough for me.