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Author Topic: U.S. deserter loses refugee claim  (Read 981 times)

Offline Thrawn

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2005, 03:56:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OIO
oh c'mon! you really believe what you just said?



Yeah, I'm a big fan of the rule of law.
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Offline wetrat

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2005, 03:58:40 PM »
Unless you yanks plan on hanging this poor bugger, I imagine we'll be shipping him back.
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Offline Maverick

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2005, 04:01:32 PM »
OIO it's called being held responsible for ones actions. He took the oath, he violated it, now it's time to be held accountable for his desertion. Trying to use his child / family as an excuse is not a valid arguement nor is it justification any more than a criminal fleeing prosecution because he would miss his child growing up while he was in jail.
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Offline Tumor

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2005, 04:08:05 PM »
Simply put, if you want to enjoy the benefits of a career in the U.S. military, do your job.

If you don't want to do your job, don't volunteer... "there's always barber college".
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Offline OIO

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2005, 04:21:48 PM »
"He took the oath, he violated it, now it's time to be held accountable for his desertion."

Did he? He did deploy once... and he did submit the CO and was denied. I believe at that point he was following the part of the oath that said "and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice"

Only difference is that the army decided NOT to accept his CO.  So tell me, at that point what options does this guy have? Jail or go through the very thing he's objecting about? Not very good options if you ask me.

"Trying to use his child / family as an excuse is not a valid arguement nor is it justification"

I strongly disagree with you there. Thats one hell of a valid justification in my view.

"any more than a criminal fleeing prosecution because he would miss his child growing up while he was in jail."

Pray tell why you consider this guy a criminal? This is what I really dont understand about this.

Is there another way for this guy to leave the army without getting thrown in jail? I dont know much about it but I bet if he was told a dishonorable discharge was an option he'd have taken it.
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Offline Gunslinger

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2005, 04:55:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OIO
"He took the oath, he violated it, now it's time to be held accountable for his desertion."

Did he? He did deploy once... and he did submit the CO and was denied. I believe at that point he was following the part of the oath that said "and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice"

Only difference is that the army decided NOT to accept his CO.  So tell me, at that point what options does this guy have? Jail or go through the very thing he's objecting about? Not very good options if you ask me.

"Trying to use his child / family as an excuse is not a valid arguement nor is it justification"

I strongly disagree with you there. Thats one hell of a valid justification in my view.

"any more than a criminal fleeing prosecution because he would miss his child growing up while he was in jail."

Pray tell why you consider this guy a criminal? This is what I really dont understand about this.

Is there another way for this guy to leave the army without getting thrown in jail? I dont know much about it but I bet if he was told a dishonorable discharge was an option he'd have taken it.


Dang you just dont get it do you.  We don't get to pick and choose the orders we follow.  If we believe they are invalid there's a process you go through.  It is not corrupted, it is not biased.  If that process doesn't side with him or his beliefs he sucks it up and follows orders or goes to jail for refusing them.

If you break the law in the US running to Canada is no excuse because you don't believe in the law or want to spend more time with your family.  AND YES he broke the law.  Violations of the uniformed code of military justice are felony convictions.  Desertion is a violation of the UCMJ.

more than half a million others did what they were told and a hand full didn't.  He is not justified by any means.  He volunteered for this....no one put a gun to his head when he enlisted.  There's way's of getting out of the military and this guy didn't choose any of them.  He deserted no matter what the circumstances are.  I've had a handfull of troops go AWOL for "humanitarion" reasons and they ALL got punished.  It doesnt matter if they did it because their sick mother was dieing.  There's a process to follow and if you don't follow it you are to be held accountable.



Thrawn,

I understand your beliefs about the war....but constituionally the war was completly legal.  That was the point I was making.
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Offline Raider179

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2005, 05:02:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OIO
"He took the oath, he violated it, now it's time to be held accountable for his desertion."

Did he? He did deploy once... and he did submit the CO and was denied. I believe at that point he was following the part of the oath that said "and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice"

Only difference is that the army decided NOT to accept his CO.  So tell me, at that point what options does this guy have? Jail or go through the very thing he's objecting about? Not very good options if you ask me.

"Trying to use his child / family as an excuse is not a valid arguement nor is it justification"

I strongly disagree with you there. Thats one hell of a valid justification in my view.

"any more than a criminal fleeing prosecution because he would miss his child growing up while he was in jail."

Pray tell why you consider this guy a criminal? This is what I really dont understand about this.

Is there another way for this guy to leave the army without getting thrown in jail? I dont know much about it but I bet if he was told a dishonorable discharge was an option he'd have taken it.


CO? LMAO did you read why he got denied?

Jeremy stated that, should he be attacked, he could not always turn the other cheek. Thus, not meeting the Army's criteria for conscientious objector status, his application was denied.

Doesnt sound like an objector sounds like a punk-ass. An objector would not partake in any violence of any kind. Jeremy here says he would kill someone if they try to kill him.


Here is why he is a criminal, He has been in the military, getting benefits and all that goes along with it, with the understanding that when he is called to fight he will go. To me that is nothing more than a broken contract on his part. Tell him to fork the salary he got paid back over and we will call it even. Oh thats right he spent it. Screw that punk ass. Like he is the only one with a family that is over there. I agree with whoever said he should have took it like a man and went to jail over it. Bet he woulda got a nice lawyer from somewhere and gotten a discharge, now he is marked for the rest of his life.
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Offline Gunslinger

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2005, 06:26:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
CO? LMAO did you read why he got denied?

Jeremy stated that, should he be attacked, he could not always turn the other cheek. Thus, not meeting the Army's criteria for conscientious objector status, his application was denied.

Doesnt sound like an objector sounds like a punk-ass. An objector would not partake in any violence of any kind. Jeremy here says he would kill someone if they try to kill him.


Here is why he is a criminal, He has been in the military, getting benefits and all that goes along with it, with the understanding that when he is called to fight he will go. To me that is nothing more than a broken contract on his part. Tell him to fork the salary he got paid back over and we will call it even. Oh thats right he spent it. Screw that punk ass. Like he is the only one with a family that is over there. I agree with whoever said he should have took it like a man and went to jail over it. Bet he woulda got a nice lawyer from somewhere and gotten a discharge, now he is marked for the rest of his life.


Yup refuse his orders take a courts martial.  He'd probably get 6 months at best.  After that they give hima BCD or ADMIN Sep and he's now a free man and go to Canada as he wishes.
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Offline Maverick

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2005, 06:56:20 PM »
OIO,

You are very right, you don't know anything about it.

His CO was not accepted. His option, suck it up and continue to serve as his oath stated he would.

Missing his family is not a justification for desertion, period. It isn't even sufficient for mitigating circumstances for sentencing purposes.

As to the dishonorable discharge, you can bet he'll see it. It will be handed down if he is convicted of desertion. It will come after he has served the sentence in Leavenworth. He will be sentenced to Leavenworth as that is the military's prison where convicted military people go after a Court Marshal.

Desertion is a very criminal offense in the Military. That makes him a criminal by no ones actions but his own. Desertion during a time of war used to be punishable by death, I don't know if it still applies as I no longer have access to the UCMJ.

After his sentence is served he is free to leave the country, I still sugest Iraq. Perhaps if he leaves his family behind thay can find a more suitable substitute for him. I doubt it would be hard to do so.
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Offline RedTop

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2005, 07:05:22 PM »
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Offline Gunslinger

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2005, 07:22:31 PM »
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Offline Raider179

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2005, 07:30:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
OIO,

You are very right, you don't know anything about it.

His CO was not accepted. His option, suck it up and continue to serve as his oath stated he would.

Missing his family is not a justification for desertion, period. It isn't even sufficient for mitigating circumstances for sentencing purposes.

As to the dishonorable discharge, you can bet he'll see it. It will be handed down if he is convicted of desertion. It will come after he has served the sentence in Leavenworth. He will be sentenced to Leavenworth as that is the military's prison where convicted military people go after a Court Marshal.

Desertion is a very criminal offense in the Military. That makes him a criminal by no ones actions but his own. Desertion during a time of war used to be punishable by death, I don't know if it still applies as I no longer have access to the UCMJ.

After his sentence is served he is free to leave the country, I still sugest Iraq. Perhaps if he leaves his family behind thay can find a more suitable substitute for him. I doubt it would be hard to do so.


Think I read somewhere he could get 5 years.
ok found it 5 years...

Hinzman could face charges of desertion if sent home and would face up to five years in prison.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/03/24/canada.soldier.ap/index.html
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Offline RedTop

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2005, 07:35:49 PM »
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Offline wklink

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2005, 07:58:06 PM »
This guy is a coward.  I served in the Gulf with people who disagreed with our premise of going to war but they still went because the order was lawful.  The Congress authorized this war, the orders were given and we went.  

Soldiers do not, nor should, have the 'option' to pick and chose which wars they fight in.  If he felt that the order to deploy was unlawful then he had the obligation to protest the order through his chain of command.  He did not have the legal right to run away.  At the worst he probably would have been given a bad conduct discharge and kicked out of the Army.  His little stunt is called desertion, plain and simple and that means he will go to jail, as he should.


He signed all the contracts and he, as an adult, agreed to sign up as a soldier in the US Army.  He joined the Army as an infantryman (11B) and went to airborne school.  This is not a kid that joined the Air Force to work on B-2 bombers, he joined up as a grunt.  

Also remember that this is an all volunteer force.  There is no one in the US military that was 'drafted'.  Every one of us signed up to serve our country.  When you volunteer you have the obligation to follow the legal orders of your superiors.  He failed to do that.  His opposition to the war is inconsequential.
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Offline Gunslinger

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U.S. deserter loses refugee claim
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2005, 08:08:53 PM »
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