Misterious 190 climb angle

[HoHun]

Hi Mando,

>BTW, this topic has no relation with zooming, may be it has more relation with weight/power ratio and max AOA.

You will be only able to avoid a firing solution for the attacker with a very, very substantial climb rate advantage. Consider that the attacker has an angle of attack with regard to its flightpath that's in the same magnitude as the angle of climb, and certainly greater than the angle of climb difference.

Between Fw 190A, Spitfire V and P-51D, you'll only get that kind of a climb rate advantage from a zoom.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[senna]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
A couple of things.

1. The FW190 was typically climbed at a higher speed than most other fighters. I think this is a result of higher wing loading but the FW190's best climb speed was somewhere around 180MPH IAS. I would think based on this that the climb angle would be shallow not steep.

2. I also thought that the 190 had cooling issues with rear cylinders (common in radials) during a climb to the point of having to install a cooling fan behind the prop. This would also be a reason for higher speed shallow angle climbing.

If you look at the FW190 vrs F4U-1D/F6F-3 test the 190 was superior in climbs above 160MPH and inferior below that speed. I would imagine that the slower speeds relate to higher climb angles. Just my guess.

what he said.

[MANDO]

Originally posted by HoHun
You will be only able to avoid a firing solution for the attacker with a very, very substantial climb rate advantage.

Hohun, disagree with that. If Im able to put my plane above the enemy gunsight while the enemy is not able to raise its nose without speeding up and overshooting, I'll avoid the firing solution. With that attitude, probably I'll be climbing no more than few hundred of feet in few seconds, just enought to avoid being fired at. This kind of move is quite frequent with N1K2 and La7, you are at their six and, surprise, they are able to get these few degrees extra, just enough to ruin your aim.

[HoHun]

Hi Mando,

>This kind of move is quite frequent with N1K2 and La7, you are at their six and, surprise, they are able to get these few degrees extra, just enough to ruin your aim.

Just set some up some tests, climbing the two aircraft to compare at a couple of different speeds, noting the climb rate in each test.

I predict that you'll find out that you only get a substantially superior climb angle from a substanstially superior climb rate :-)

In lieu of zooming, you can also get the effect you describe from a sustained climb from a higher starting altitude, which of course is just another form of initial energy advantage.

(As Cap mentioned, the spiral climb is another variation because it keeps horizontal distance small, increasing the vertical angle gained from the vertical separation.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Seeker]

Climb can be a funny thing.

Every one knows a Spit IX will out climb a Pony; but if the pony sticks to ROC of 2; he'll climb away from me.

Admittedly; if he's already in guns range; I can lift the nose at the expense of speed and nail him; but if I miss; putting the nose down to gain speed won't bring him closer.

If he keeps to ROC 2.0; he'll get away.


Paradoxicaly; if I'm in the Pony; chasing a Spit IX; trying to out climb him at ROC 2.0 won't work; in as much as after two or three minutes I'll be higher than him; but I'll also be in front of him; which kind of defeats the whole purpose.

I'm not phrasing this well; but try it for your self and see what I mean.

[TDeacon]

CAP1/HoHun,

The irritable tone of my previous 2 posts was probably caused by the breezy, perhaps unintentionally slightly condescending tone of a few of your posts ("... you DO always fly with a wingman, right? ...", "... i hope this helps yas a little bit ...", etc.), especially when I don't think you understand the main point being discussed here.  

Sorry for the irritability; I don't want to hurt your feelings.  Please note that I am adversely commenting on some of your posts in this thread ONLY, and NOT on your overall expertise or intellect.

[HoHun]

Hi TDeacon,

You're on my ignore list now.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[CAP1]

"CAP1/HoHun,

The irritable tone of my previous 2 posts was probably caused by the breezy, perhaps unintentionally slightly condescending tone of a few of your posts ("... you DO always fly with a wingman, right? ...", "... i hope this helps yas a little bit ...", etc.), especially when I don't think you understand the main "

Deacon........you didn't hurt my feelings...........the statements you mentioned(above) were said in sarcasm/joking manner. When everyone here gets to know me a little better, you'll all find i have a kinda "dry" sense of humor. Heck.....i'm probably gonna get my butt handed to me by quite a few of you guys......you're all probably already conspiring against me and my P38.
Seriously though....like i said...if any of you guys took offense, i apologise......it wasn't intenede to offend.

 HoHun....in AW3, i was FGHT6.......mostly flew RR, only dabbling in FR, and mostly flew the P38. Sometimes you could find me in a 109 or 190......but NEVER a spit(blech!)too easy to fly. :-)

[CAP1]

""Lets suppose two aircrafts are turning near stall speed, the pursuer is close to a gun solution but the pursued starts to go nose up, the pursuer try to follow but its nose refuses to keep pointing up, so the pursuer level to gain a bit of speed but overshoots in the process. ""

 Hi Mando,
This still throws a lot of variables in the mix. but if we assume pony vs fw, then regardless of who's on who's tail, it the pursuer is close to gaining a solution, then he's turning inside of his prey....accordingly, he's probably just a few knots slower.....this would still give the climb advantage to the prey should he choose to do so. for the most part though, in this situation, its got more to do with the design of the aircraft, and the power/weight ratio. Also, whether the pursuer is fighting his fight or if he followed his prey into their fight.

 A real life example i guess would be two friends of mine.....one owns a Citbria super Decathalon....the other an RV6. Both have aerobatic capabilities. the decathalon cruises at about 149 KIAS, the Rv at about 160 to 170. the rv weighs about the same as the decathalon, but has about the same power(approx. 160HP) They go up and dogfight(really...its awsome to watch!!)the decathalon can turn incredibly tihgt......so after a few turns, the rv levels his wings, and climbs away.......just as the Decathalon would call guns. It was amazing how fast it accelerated and climbed away.
 this was due to the much cleaner design of the RV. the rv is faster, can outclimb, but can't turn. Since in the turnfight, the decathalon was turning inside the rv, he was a couple of knots slower.....btw..the decathalon driver is an ex phantom driver...the rv driver flew in WW2. The rv driver was aware enough to not stay in the slow turn fight, knowing he had more advantage in speed.....he did actually climb a couple thousand feet above the decathalon and try to dive on him...but the decathalon driver simply turned into the attack, giving the attacker a poor shot.
 Again, i apologize for the long post, but i think i got it out of my head to the screen right?

i'll try to shorten my posts :-)
john

[Black Sheep]

Bad form there Ho

[HoHun]

Hi Black,

>Bad form there Ho

Explain.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[TDeacon]

CAP1:  OK, I forgive you.  
HoHun:  You may ignore me if it makes you feel better.  

Continuing on topic (non-zoom climb angle):  

OK, thinking out loud here...  What if we consider the extreme case.  What if there were a plane which could climb vertically (best possible climb angle), for an indefinate period of time, at a typical 3000 ft/min rate.  What tactical advantage, if any would this yield?  

Assume your opponent is in a non-zoom climb as well, and below you.  He has a maximum climb angle.  The area of space above his plane which he cannot point (and shoot) at is an inverted cone, with apex at his plane.  If you are able to remain in this cone, you would appear to be advantaged.  You will be able to remain in this cone so long as you are already in it, and have a steeper climb angle...



This might be considered to be analogous to a sailing ship which can sail closer to the wind, being chased by another sailing ship to leeward (downwind).  Because of this characteristic, the first ship can escape.  (Sorry; I'm currently into Napoleonic naval miniatures).  

Comments?

[CAP1]

<<<Assume your opponent is in a non-zoom climb as well, and below you. He has a maximum climb angle. The area of space above his plane which he cannot point (and shoot) at is an inverted cone, with apex at his plane. >>>>>

 Hi Deacon,
I think that in the above, you partially answered your own question...if i'm understanding you right. In the above example, the lower plane simply couldn't bring his guns to bear on the higher plane(well, he could open his canopy and try his sidearm), leaving the higher plane for the most part "safe". At the same time, assuming the lower plane doesn't induce a stall, he will eventually become a target again when the higher plane gains enough distance....either verticle and or horizontal...he'll simply turn and attack again.

 How about this one........did you know that an airplane stalling has absolutly nothing to do with its speed? If the pilot pulls too hard, and raises the wing above the critical angle of attack to the relative wind, the aircraft will stall. Thats how some GA pilots have killed themselves.....diving in a cessna, and at 800ft, doin 140 or more they decide they need to exit the dive......they yank on the yoke, the plane stalls, and mashes itself into the ground.

 Back to the subject......another real life example i can think of........most GA aircraft climb out at about 30 degrees nose up. Our cessna 172p 180 hp conversion climbs at about 1k per min at 75KIAS. For short fiels takeoffs, I can increase this for a very short time using best climb angle...this gives me about 57KIAS, but tops 1k climb. The RV6 i belive will climb over 1k at 70 KIAS. It's also lighter, and cleaner.
 So i think what i just beat the hell outta the bush to say, is that the climb angle is a matter of aircraft design, and horsepower....probably prop design too. And lastly, it could just be the modeling of the aircraft in AH too. in AW, the spit was WAY overmodeled. too easy to fly.

anyway, did i do good??

CYALL soon!!!!!
john