Author Topic: Woah! look at this ki84! (Read 4783 times)

oboe · « **Reply #30 on:** March 29, 2005, 05:10:27 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
Oboe,

I too have read some pretty gruesome things resulting from kamikaze attacks.

But when you get right down to it, the fact that it was a kamikaze instead of a bomb makes no difference to the horror that it produces.

Agreed.

Kweassa · « **Reply #31 on:** March 29, 2005, 06:49:02 PM »

Let's not jump to conclusions.

The previous post was a refutal to what Hawklore said. That kind of view on the Kamikaze was plain wrong, and it's exactly what the Japanese propaganda spewed during the days - and even after the days - of the war. It was to offer a more detailed view on the reality of the Kamikaze, not about what it should be in this game.

I'm a game=game, history=history guy. I can tell the difference between the two, and like I mentioned in other posts, I don't mind if someone made that skin and flew it in the game. Heck, I like Swastikas on my German planes. I love the Communist symbols and slogans on the Russian planes and tanks, and the Fascist symbols on the Condor Legion's 109s. It doesn't mean I'm a Nazi, Commie, Fascio.. etc..

...

It's just that for a variety of reasons, I won't want to make a skin of a plane which its pilot were meant to die. It's not exactly about the morality of it all, but something to with self-pride. And mostly, that scheme doesn't intrigue me at all. Maybe if the overall tone was more fitting with the usual IJAAF olive-drab I might do it..

Think of it as this way. I like making 190 and 109 skins, but I won't be interested in making a pink 109 or pink 190, even if such thing really existed. Doesn't feel all that cool to me, or even fun.

Add in the gruesome historical background to the mix and yuck! I won't want to skin that Ki84.

Kweassa · « **Reply #32 on:** March 29, 2005, 06:50:29 PM »

Oh, and Spade, you don't have to feel sorry, or apologize about anything. Though I'm not interested in that one, it is a colorful scheme anyway.

I won't be surprised if other people wanted it in the game.

oboe · « **Reply #33 on:** March 29, 2005, 07:08:12 PM »

Yeah, Spade - nothing to apologize for. I enjoyed doing the research on the tail insignia, as well as getting in some thinking time and discussion about kamikazes.

Hawklore · « **Reply #34 on:** March 29, 2005, 10:18:38 PM »

The only reason it should be kept off is political reasons, PC, and I know in germany your not allowed to display the swastika in games or not, does Japan have the same thing for this?

Karnak · « **Reply #35 on:** March 30, 2005, 01:04:29 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hawklore
does Japan have the same thing for this?

Not so far as I've ever heard.

moot · « **Reply #36 on:** March 30, 2005, 01:14:17 AM »

that other thing wasn't in response to you, Oboe.

Skydancer · « **Reply #37 on:** March 30, 2005, 06:19:46 AM »

So if we are not going to model Kamikaze because of some uncomfortable feelings about the past, can we get rid of Lancs ( Dresden) B17's (Same) JU87s (those poor poles and fleeing refugees), JU88s (poor Londoners) P47's typhoons et all, (those poor German civilians fleeing the battle )And so on, and so on. Infact lets not Simulate death and destruction any more at all but turn the game into air racing or something.

Cmon this is a WW2 sim. WW2 was ugly destructive and cruel..As well as being many nations finest hour. We can't hide from it. We up every day and shoot planes piloted by fellow gamers out of the sky. Its simulated warfare. Lets not pretend otherwise. Kamikazes were part of that.

Ok I'll can it now

TexMurphy · « **Reply #38 on:** March 30, 2005, 07:02:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Skydancer
So if we are not going to model Kamikaze because of some uncomfortable feelings about the past, can we get rid of Lancs ( Dresden) B17's (Same) JU87s (those poor poles and fleeing refugees), JU88s (poor Londoners) P47's typhoons et all, (those poor German civilians fleeing the battle )And so on, and so on. Infact lets not Simulate death and destruction any more at all but turn the game into air racing or something.

Cmon this is a WW2 sim. WW2 was ugly destructive and cruel..As well as being many nations finest hour. We can't hide from it. We up every day and shoot planes piloted by fellow gamers out of the sky. Its simulated warfare. Lets not pretend otherwise. Kamikazes were part of that.

And since we are simmulating all this... good god is a ..i.. bad thing. Personally, note personally, I find that its rediculous to forbid a skin for the ..i.. with the context of what we are allowing.

But I do undertand that in different cultures different symbols, even words carry a different meaning to its people.

Show a swastika to a jew, a kamikazi symbol to a Japanese (even worse a korean), a ..i.. to an american ect ect.

While we are simulating war, destruction and killing we do not have to include the most powerfull negative SYMBOLS of the war. There is alot of power and negative energy tied to symbols.

Personally I cant say wether the kamikazi symbols are of the same magnitude in Asia as the Swastika is, that is up to HTC, but if it is then it really doesnt serve any purpose.

Afterall its a game that is ment to bring joy into our lifes.

Tex

Ps. when it comes to kamikaze game play in say future ToDs I think I know what the answer is even without any morale attached to it.

Does it make for fun gameplay to players on both sides of the conflict? No.

Case closed.Ds.

CPorky · « **Reply #39 on:** March 30, 2005, 07:35:51 AM »

Actually, there was a scenario where players flew kamikaze aircraft and flew them into ships offshore. I could hazard a guess on which one it was, but I'm not positively sure. (I only knew I walked on into a C-Hog and landed 17 scalps in a single run and those weren't even the kamikaze aircraft)

Lets face it, the reason alot of stuff gets denied is because HTC wants a paycheck, I accept and respect that. They don't want parents, governments, or special interest groups going after them. I'm not sure who they would offend with this kamikaze skin, however...

Quote

Originally posted by TexMurphy
when it comes to kamikaze game play in say future ToDs I think I know what the answer is even without any morale attached to it.

Does it make for fun gameplay to players on both sides of the conflict? No.

mechanic · « **Reply #40 on:** March 30, 2005, 07:57:52 AM »

good looking skin.

i hope we dont offend any Kamikaze veterans who might read these boards......

oboe · « **Reply #41 on:** March 30, 2005, 08:25:03 AM »

SkyDancer's POV is perfectly valid I think. Its not for me due to the conscripted and suicidal nature of kamikaze missions, but he is right - its a game based on WWII and kamikaze was a part of that conflict.

Coupla points:

Is there really such a thing as a "kamikaze symbol", akin to the nazi swastika? My research leads me to believe there wasn't - that kamikaze planes were more colorfully painted and had slogans or crew names applied before the final flight, but there was no single symbol meaning "kamikaze". I identifed a unit insignia on the tail of the above Ki.84 that indicates it was from 'Special Attack Unit 57', but other Shimbu-Tai's had their own, unique insignias...

Also, HTC hasn't made any statements to my knowledge about barring skins associated with kamikaze units so any assumptions we make are premature. All we have in this thread is a striking Ki.84 scheme identifed as being from a kamikaze unit and a couple of skinners declining interest in skinning it for that reason. A simple and polite email to Skuzzy may get HTC to establish an official position, or any willing skinner could take the time to make the skin and submit it and see what HTC says.

Whatever decision HTC makes I hope people will be mature about and accept without creating a fuss, because AH is HTC's livelihood and I know they weigh these issues carefully and make the best choice they can, given the dilemma. One side will have to accept that the decision is not what they prefer, and move on.

Here's another question to think about: Eventually, AH2 will get the B-29 Superfortress (I hope). So would you like to see a skinner do "Enola Gay" or "Bock's Car" - the Superforts that dropped the atomic bombs? They are the most famous B-29s, but I already know I wouldn't touch these skins - even if HTC modelled the A-bomb (which I doubt they would ever do, but still). Those skins are just too much of a focal point on a still emotionally-supercharged issue. Something else to consider - I wonder if the maturity we show as a community when we discuss this issue will affect whether or not the B-29 ever makes it into the game. If HTC sees we that cannot even hold a calm, rational discussion about it, they may decide its one can of worms not worth opening...

Dinky2003 · « **Reply #42 on:** March 30, 2005, 09:27:16 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hawklore
The only reason it should be kept off is political reasons, PC, and I know in germany your not allowed to display the swastika in games or not, does Japan have the same thing for this?

No. Japan isn't afraid of it's history like Germany is. Having been over there myself, I can safely say that.

straffo · « **Reply #43 on:** March 30, 2005, 09:49:01 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dinky2003
No. Japan isn't afraid of it's history like Germany is. Having been over there myself, I can safely say that.

Ignorant.

You're just completly wrong it's in fact the other way around.

Japan don't not look back at it's history ,Japan continue to negate what have been done in Korea for example.

Dinky2003 · « **Reply #44 on:** March 30, 2005, 10:17:44 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
Ignorant.

You're just completly wrong it's in fact the other way around.

Japan don't not look back at it's history ,Japan continue to negate what have been done in Korea for example.

But do they censor the media that talks about those events? No.