Euthanasia in the News: Parents Make the Decision Everyday.

[eskimo2]

The comparison is that these preemies are typically on respirators/ventilators.  Some machines assist breathing, others practically replace breathing.  Very often little ones have a brain bleed at birth that causes significant brain damage.  (Brain bleeds are pretty common in extreme preemies.)  A baby could be facing a lot of other problems as well.  Some parents choose to pull their kids off of the ventilators which ultimately results in death.  

As far as food goes, they all start off with an IV and feeding tube.  Most of the nutrition comes from the IV at first.  Gradually more and more food is introduced as they can tolerate it.  I haven’t heard of pulling feeding tubes or IVs when things look relatively hopeless, just respiration assistance.  (I’m certainly not an expert though, perhaps they do.)

eskimo

[Masherbrum]

Some a**holes feel they have the right to play God.   Pulling a feeding tube is no less than murder, IMO.  I am Conservative by nature, but this is ridiculous.  I could understand if she was on a ventilator needing artificial needs to stay alive.   This is between Terri and God and noone else should be allowed to arrange the meeting.

Personally, with the "Loving husband" dating some other chick, he should divorce her, granting her parents rights to fight for her survival.   Personally, this clash has roots deeper than Terri, but somehow hasn't been mentioned.

Flame me all you want.  This is ALL I will say on the subject.  

<>

Karaya

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Some a**holes feel they have the right to play God.   Pulling a feeding tube is no less than murder, IMO.  I am Conservative by nature, but this is ridiculous.  I could understand if she was on a ventilator needing artificial needs to stay alive.   This is between Terri and God and noone else should be allowed to arrange the meeting.


 

]

What is different between a ventilator and a feeding tube? I see no difference. Both are sustaining you because you can no longer keep yourself alive.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Raider179
What is different between a ventilator and a feeding tube? I see no difference.  

I hope you're not a doctor.

[Suave]

Tube feedings are covered in advanced directives, aka DNR order. Nutrition is as much a life support apparatus as oxygen and breathing devices.

If this Shiavo person had stated that she wouldn't want to be kept alive like this, as her sister and two other person supposedly witnessed a long time ago, then that's that.

[CPorky]

Originally posted by Suave
If this Shiavo person had stated that she wouldn't want to be kept alive like this, as her sister and two other person supposedly witnessed a long time ago, then that's that.

Unfortunately, even IF she had a Living Will, I'd bet there would still be people claiming its murder.

[lasersailor184]

NO!  DNR orders does not mean let the person die!!!!!!!!



It means if they die, do not bring them back to life!!!

[wklink]

There seems to be a lot of confusion between a DNR/DNI order and advanced directives.  There is also a difference between a DNR/DNI order and withdrawal of care.  All of these can have some crossover coverage and in general most of these things should be discussed and agreed to before someone becomes sick.  All of these things are regulated by individual states.  In some states Advanced Directives (or living wills) carry legal weight while in others they are more or less guidelines.

I have worked as an Intensive Care Unit and Emergency Room RN (in military treatment facilities).  We in general follow advanced directives of patients as much as we can, although in some cases family members can overrule the wishes of the patient-creating some very big family squabbles.


DNR does not mean Do not Treat.  DNR/DNI orders for one have to be issued by a physician and normally cover only the length of stay while in that individual facility.  If someone has a DNR/DNI order in one facility it is NOT normally transferrable to another facility, the order has to be re-written in that facility.  This may vary from state to state but every state that I have worked in (to include Florida btw) seems to follow this practice.

DNR/DNI is pretty simple.  In the event of cardiac or respiratory arrest the caregivers will not perform Advanced Cardiac Life Support (ACLS) maneuvers to revive the patient.  Medications to 'jump start' the heart (epinephrine and atropine) or to correct deadly heart arrythmias (lidocane or amiodarone) will generally not be given.  No defibrillation or cardioversion (electrical jump starting of the heart) will be performed.  Assisted breathing via an Endotracheal Tube (breathing tube) will not be performed.  The patient will not be hooked to a ventilator and will not have all kinds of invasive devices (normally) put in them.

It does not say that you won't treat a patient.  A DNR/DNI order does not mean that a sick patient won't get antibiotics, oxygen, IV fluids or even respiratory treatments or meds to fix heart or blood pressure problems.  That is more of a withdrawal of care order, something that can be decided by a patient or by a family care members when the patient is unable to make such a decision.  

Don't confuse the two, withdrawal of care is not the same as having a DNR/DNI order.  I know lots of elderly people that don't want someone shocking their heart in the event of a heart attack, that doesn't mean they don't want to be fed if they end up in the hospital.

[Suave]

What the duck guy said. Patient, or power of attorney states in advanced directives if he wants to be DNR or chemical code or whatever, and the physician writes the order from that information. Tube feeding, at least in my state, is legally considered life support. That's why it's usually referenced in a persons advanced directives.

Oh, and redundant punctuation will cause you to lose your suave privledges almost as fast as typing "" will.

[Maverick]

FWIW, It isn't just parents making that kind of decision. It's the kids too.

Last December my Mother had a massive stroke in her sleep. When my little Sister found her she was only semi responsive. On the way to the hospital she coded 2 times. At the hospital she coded again. The EEG showed no brain waves. The three of us kids all had a phone conferance and came to the same decision. There was nothing of our Mom left but a shell, it was time to turn off the machines and let her go. She could have been kept going indeterminately, but for what reason. We knew she hated the idea of hospitals and tubes and so on. She passed on a couple hours later.

Did I enjoy that decision? No. Was it the right one? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Suave
Tube feedings are covered in advanced directives, aka DNR order. Nutrition is as much a life support apparatus as oxygen and breathing devices.

If this Shiavo person had stated that she wouldn't want to be kept alive like this, as her sister and two other person supposedly witnessed a long time ago, then that's that.

The way I read it, at least half a dozen times, it was NOT Terri Schiavo's sister who heard it, it was her husband's brother and sister. Also it has been stated that a friend of Terri and her husband heard her say it.

I find it amazing that those statements would all be considered hearsay and inadmissable were this a criminal case, but it's a civil case and they are admissable, at least supposedly they are in Florida.

I also find it very interesting that her rights to practice her religion are also not being protected. She is supposedly a devout Catholic. Not that I agree with Catholicism, but it is HER religion of choice. As a Catholic, it would be unacceptable for her to request the tube be removed (but evidently NOT unacceptable for her to sign a DNR or to declines heart/lung assistance, at least as a Catholic expalined it me). Now, considering they are "allowing" her to die, is it not odd they'd "allow" her to die under circumstances she believed would cause her to go to Hell, or at least not get into Heaven? It is after all HER soul and HER choice here. Evidently, they are violating the Catholic principles regarding burial as well. Interesting that this is supposedly (if you believe her "husband") ALL about what Terri would want, and yet directly contrary to what she evidently believed. I suppose you can make the case that it won't affect her soul and its final disposition, if it is, in fact, against her wishes and beliefs, since she's unable to control her destiny. Kind of screws up the argument about it being what she wanted though, doesn't it?

[Suave]

Got it, you think you know what she believed and her husband and the others are lying.

You could've said that without getting all cuckoo religious.

good bye

[Silat]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wow.  I leave for the weekend and everyone gets so wrong.



DNR is mainly for if something happens and you could legally be declared dead.  I.E. Your heart stops.  Someone with a DNR order is saying, "If my heart stops, DON'T START IT AGAIN!"



Terri Schiavo was not dead.  Nor was she going to die anytime soon.  But they decided to murder her via starvation.  It's not the same.  Don't try to make it out to be the same.

Please read the timeline of her case. Then you will see that it is really about the choice of the individual ( Terri in this case ) to decide her own fate.

[fd ski]

I find it amazing that those statements would all be considered hearsay and inadmissable were this a criminal case, but it's a civil case and they are admissable, at least supposedly they are in Florida.

If i'm not mistaken heresay is "Someone told me that she said that...."
and that is indeed inadmissable in most cases.

However, people testifying to hearing her say it in person, that's direct testimony and quite admissable.

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by Maverick
FWIW, It isn't just parents making that kind of decision. It's the kids too.

Last December my Mother had a massive stroke in her sleep. When my little Sister found her she was only semi responsive. On the way to the hospital she coded 2 times. At the hospital she coded again. The EEG showed no brain waves. The three of us kids all had a phone conferance and came to the same decision. There was nothing of our Mom left but a shell, it was time to turn off the machines and let her go. She could have been kept going indeterminately, but for what reason. We knew she hated the idea of hospitals and tubes and so on. She passed on a couple hours later.

Did I enjoy that decision? No. Was it the right one? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes.

Yeah, and I guess a few on this Bbs would contend that you're nothing but a murder because of it....

and truly, Sorry for your loss....