History misconceptions

[Kweassa]

Flying along in this condition, he suddenly gets "bounced", what to do flashes through his mind. He must turn, he must increase power and get rid of those external tanks and get on his main. So, he reaches down and turns two stiff, difficult gas switches {valves} to main - turns on his drop tank switches, presses his release button, puts the mixture to auto rich (two separate and clumsy operations), increases his RPM, increases his manifold pressure, turns on his gun heater switch (which he must feel for and cannot possibly see), turns on his combat switch and he is ready to fight. At this point, he has probably been shot down or he has done one of several things wrong. Most common error is to push the throttles wide open before increasing RPM. This causes detonation and subsequent engine failure. Or, he forgets to switch back to auto rich, and gets excessive cylinder head temperature with subsequent engine failure.

 Nice post humble... Really shows why simplicity of in-cockpit operations were as important as pure plane performance in real life.

[Grits]

Sooo....how fast is our F6F? What alt is the 409-412 speed at? I've always wondered why the F6F was so much slower than the F4U, I thought since the Aces of the Pacific days when looking at the data that it shouldnt be that much slower.

[Kweassa]

Our AH F6F is in the 390mph range.

 Maybe you folks should send some detailed data to Pyro.

[Glasses]

And Kurt Tank is not teh ghey.

[XrightyX]

Originally posted by Widewing


4) ...At high altitudes, the P-38s suffered from serious compressibility problems and any Luftwaffe pilot finding himself at a disadvantage was able to disengage by diving vertically. .

Can you imagine Channel 200 in 1943:

USP38Plt:  COME BACK HERE YOU RUN90!!!
USP38Plt:  <--------P38 over Liege, Bel
Lftweny8:  Cherry picking alt monkey
USP38Plt:  I PWN U!

[Pongo]

Star of Africa..
I guess we agree.
"Here's a list of the more common errors of fact.

1) Britain was responsible for the P-51 being designed.
"

Britain was responsible for the P-51 being designed. No question, indisputable. Previos work by Curtis and genius by North American (influenced by Messerschmidt) led to the Pony. But Britian was responsible for the P51 being designed. Clearly.

Anything else is wishfull revisionism.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by humble
From what I can find on the net the 55th was 1st over berlin on March 3, 1944. 1st Buffs made it on March 6th....

"Paul Selden, Stan Richardson, and Col. C. Jones (ret.) were three of the approximately 20 members of the 55th Fighter Group who were the first Americans over Berlin in the war. The first USAAF mission over Berlin was scheduled for March 3, 1944, but the mission was scrubbed due to weather. The 55th never got the recall notice, probably due to German jamming, and the group thus earned the distinction of "first over Berlin." Col. Jones was 343rd Squadron XO at the time and gave a vivid description of the instrument conditions the group struggled with on the way to the target. Selden and Richardson gave a far-ranging picture of the lives of combat pilots, including a good-natured debate over the respective merits of the P-38 and P-51. Paul clearly preferred the latter and Stan the former."

http://www.nwha.org/news_3Q2001/news_page8.html

From the little I read it seemed like the 20th went operational slightly later that month...

On December 28th, 1943 the 20th FG went operational.

In Carter & Mueller's Official History of The Army Air Forces in World War II: Combat Chronology, the 20th FG is credited with being the first to Berlin on March 3.

I will explain why.

For that Mission, the 20th was assigned escort for target approach and took off one hour before the 55th, who were assigned target egress escort. Despite loitering at the rendezvous point for 40 minutes, the 20th FG was still 30 miles ahead of the 55th when they over-flew Berlin.

Stan Richardsson is a friend of mine, having contributed material to several magazine article that I have written. I realize that the 55th thought they were the first to Berlin. There was some bickering about this, but the USAAF settled it with their official announcement a few weeks later. The 20th FG is officially credited with being first.

You are correct, Hubbard did lead the 20th on that mission.

Another odd attempt to get press coverage came from this mission. A P-47 pilot of the 4th FG claimed to have shot down a Bf-109 near Berlin. That was how he worded it in his report, which was endorsed by the 4th FG Command. Unfortunately, the 4th's definition of "near" was a bit ambitious. The actual shootdown occured 10 mile east of Hanover, a long way from Berlin.

My regards,

Widewing

[humble]

Widewing....

Certainly not in a position to argue it. From the little bit I found via google not a single mention of the 20th being involved. Was Rau even flying with them on March 3...my understanding is he didnt even join the 20th till after hubbard was shot down on the 18th of that month?

@@@....whoops didnt see the Hubbard comment...thats what was confusing to me.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Nice post humble... Really shows why simplicity of in-cockpit operations were as important as pure plane performance in real life.

I have a copy of Rau's letter, sent to me by the 20th's Arthur Heiden. I posted it to my website, where I'm sure Humble discovered it.

The entire article can be found here.

By the way, my co-author (Dr. Carlo Kopp) also refers to the P-38 shooting down more Japanese aircraft that any other fighter. Next time I go up on the server, I'll fix that.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Nice post humble... Really shows why simplicity of in-cockpit operations were as important as pure plane performance in real life.

Note that Rau was using the P-38J-15-LO for the basis of his argument. When the P-38L showed up, it incorporated many of Rau's suggested changes as well as a reasonable cockpit heater.  However, by then the Rau's Group had already began transitioning to the P-51D.

Lockheed actively pursued suggestions from combat pilots. Unfortunately, they were very much restricted on what could be changed if it impacted delivery. So, the first "all up" P-38s were the P-38J-25-LOs. Very few of these were made before the L model with more powerful engines was eased into the production line. Had a second source of supply been available, up-rated P-38s could have been in theater months sooner. While both Republic and North American were producing their aircraft at two large factories, Lockheed was limited to the one. Towards the end of the war, Vultee received a contract to built P-38Ls (P-38L-5-VN), but due to slow start-up and poor management, only about 113 were completed by VJ day. Only Curtiss and Brewster performed worse than Vultee. Curtiss was unable to deliver P-47s in a timely fashion and their quality control was a horror. Brewster delivered 735 F3A-1s, of which 430 were given to the Royal Navy. Brewster built aircraft were widely disliked for poor workmanship, whereas Goodyear built Corsairs were considered the best of the type.

My regards,

Widewing

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Widewing
On December 28th, 1943 the 20th FG went operational.

In Carter & Mueller's Official History of The Army Air Forces in World War II: Combat Chronology, the 20th FG is credited with being the first to Berlin on March 3.

I will explain why.

For that Mission, the 20th was assigned escort for target approach and took off one hour before the 55th, who were assigned target egress escort. Despite loitering at the rendezvous point for 40 minutes, the 20th FG was still 30 miles ahead of the 55th when they over-flew Berlin.

Stan Richardsson is a friend of mine, having contributed material to several magazine article that I have written. I realize that the 55th thought they were the first to Berlin. There was some bickering about this, but the USAAF settled it with their official announcement a few weeks later. The 20th FG is officially credited with being first.

You are correct, Hubbard did lead the 20th on that mission.

Another odd attempt to get press coverage came from this mission. A P-47 pilot of the 4th FG claimed to have shot down a Bf-109 near Berlin. That was how he worded it in his report, which was endorsed by the 4th FG Command. Unfortunately, the 4th's definition of "near" was a bit ambitious. The actual shootdown occured 10 mile east of Hanover, a long way from Berlin.

My regards,

Widewing

Interesting stuff.

Ron MacKay's short history on the 20th FG says this regarding the March 3, 1944 run:

"The next day, March 3rd, saw the first abortive run to Berlin.  Briefed for withdrawal cover, aborts cut the original 48 aircraft formation by 10 as the P38s forged a path through deteriorating weather conditions towards Liepzig.  Finding no bomber force, Lt. Col. Hubbard took the group home"

John Gray's book "The 55th Fighter Group vs the Lufwaffe" has chapter 8 headed "First to Berlin" and then goes into detail on that flight.

Roger Freeman's  book "The Mighty Eighth", under 'claims to fame' for the 55th FG lists "First 8th AF aircraft over Berlin"

Hess & Ivie's book "Fighters of the Mighty Eighth" also has the 55th being the only ones over Berlin on March 3, 1944 and include the usual photo of Jack Jenkins in Texas Ranger.

Warren Bodie's book on the Lightning also takes time to note Jack Jenkins and the 55th as the first over Berlin.

I've never seen any place else listing anyone besides the 55th FG as first over Berlin.

Guess I'll have to track down that book you mentioned.  I' m really curious now as to why so many fairly reliable authors have missed this, and why it's not been corrected in books like the Mighty Eighth.

Dan/CorkyJr

[Widewing]

Originally posted by gofaster
Widewing, do you write for "Flight"?

Flight Journal and Air Power International have published my work.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Interesting stuff.

Ron MacKay's short history on the 20th FG says this regarding the March 3, 1944 run:

"The next day, March 3rd, saw the first abortive run to Berlin.  Breifed for withdrawal cover, aborts cut the original 48 aircraft formation by 10 as the P38s forged a path through deteriorating weather conditions towards Liegpzig.  Finding no bomber force, Lt. Col. Hubbard took the group home"

John Gray's book "The 55th Fighter Group vs the Lufwaffe" has chapter 8 headed "First to Berlin" and then goes into detail on that flight.

Roger Freeman's  book "The Mighty Eighth", under 'claims to fame' for the 55th FG lists "First 8th AF aircraft over Berlin"

Hess & Ivie's book "Fighters of the Mighty Eighth" also has the 55th being the only ones over Berlin on March 3, 1944 and include the usual photo of Jack Jenkins in Texas Ranger.

Warren Bodie's book on the Lightning also takes time to note Jack Jenkins and the 55th as the first over Berlin.

I've never seen any place else listing anyone besides the 55th FG as first over Berlin.

Guess I'll have to track down that book you mentioned.  I' m really curious now as to why so many fairly reliable authors have missed this, and why it's not been corrected in books like the Mighty Eighth.

Dan/CorkyJr

If you can find The Army Air Forces in World War, by Wesley F. Craven and James L. Cates, you will be able to locate specific information. I incorrectly stated that it was in Carter & Meuller's history. They do state that 88 P-38s went to Berlin. Obviously, this means two groups as neither the 55th or 20th had more than 49 aircraft on their respective rolls.

You can find Carter & and Meuller online as the USAF has been kind enough to put the entire document up. It's located here. This is a tremendous resource for those reseaching the air war. Also, I suggest Erik Hammel's Air War Europa. Erik wrote this while recovering from back surgery. He used both Craven & Cates and Carter & Mueller. He also used squadron and group combat reports to fill in the gaps.

My regards,

Widewing

[IronDog]

Very nice reading Widewing.The Russians stripped out the 30 caliber wing guns,replaced the 37mm with a 20mm,put a 12.7 mm in each wing,removed every bit of extra weight they could,just leaving the pilot his armor plate protection.
The amount of weight they removed was about 1,500 lbs.They then put 500 lbs of weight back in the nose to balance the plane.The P39 could easily out turn the 109's,and even out climb them initially,but couldn't sustain the climb as well as a 109.The 190 gave the ol "IronDog"more of a problem,using it's speed,zoom climb and roll ability to outclass it.Many Russian pilots scored 50 plus kills in the the old P39.
IronDog

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Widewing
If you can find The Army Air Forces in World War, by Wesley F. Craven and James L. Cates, you will be able to locate specific information. I incorrectly stated that it was in Carter & Meuller's history. They do state that 88 P-38s went to Berlin. Obviously, this means two groups as neither the 55th or 20th had more than 49 aircraft on their respective rolls.

You can find Carter & and Meuller online as the USAF has been kind enough to put the entire document up. It's located here. This is a tremendous resource for those reseaching the air war. Also, I suggest Erik Hammel's Air War Europa. Erik wrote this while recovering from back surgery. He used both Craven & Cates and Carter & Mueller. He also used squadron and group combat reports to fill in the gaps.

My regards,

Widewing

Thanks for the clarification.  I'm still not convinced though.  There were three 38 groups up that day apparently as it was the first mission for the 364th FG and that fills out the 88 or 89 P38s dispatched depending on which book you read.  Freeman's "Mighty Eighth War Diary" mentions the 89 38s from the 20th, 55th and 364th FGs.  So while they were all headed for Berlin, I wonder if the 55th was the only one to get there, with Hubbard turning back the 20th after not finding the bombers near Leipzig as mentioned in MacKay's book on the 20th.

Just hard to imagine all those historians missing it, in particular if the 8th issued that document a couple weeks later clarifying it, although I guess stranger things have happened

Gonna have to get that book apparently

Now for the next question.  Have you ever come across anything documenting E model 38s being retrofitted with drop tanks to bring them to F standards?

I have the 54th FS history on microfilm and they had Es.  They also talk about doing some range testing in September 42 on their own with drop tanks and having a range in excess of 1100 miles with those birds.  It surprised me when I came across it, considering the weather they operated in etc.

It seemed to counter all that ETO bad 38 stuff and made me wonder even more why they sent the 38s to North Africa when they could have been escorting the bombers from the time they got to England in 42.

Dan/CorkyJr