Author Topic: Fw190 D-9 2.03 ata (Read 6843 times)

MANDO · « **on:** March 31, 2005, 07:06:21 AM »

The comparison chart posted by Crumpp here:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129772&goto=lastpost

shows D9 at 2.03 ata doing 386 mph at sea level. When was the D9 cleared for 2.03 ata? The chart "seems" to be signed 3 Jan 1945.

Naudet · « **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2005, 08:07:04 AM »

According to all sources i have seen so far never.

2.03ata boost pressure is available only in JUMO213 engines that are 1900PS basis, as noted on the chart.

The 2.03ata is most likely the 2240PS curve shown in a JUMO213A chart that has 1900PS as Start/Notleistung, which indicates it's a power chart of the 1900PS basis.

From handbook notes, TAM reports mentioned in various books, the highest power level cleared for operational use on the JUMO213A was 2100PS@3250rpm@1,8ata.

The following topic in the LEMB might be interesting to read:
http://p069.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm9.showMessage?topicID=357.topic

GScholz · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2005, 08:29:15 AM »

What about the 190D-11? It had a higher boosted engine than the D-9 IIRC:

MANDO · « **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2005, 08:57:11 AM »

While ata is not printed, look at curve 5 showing near 640 kmh (397mph) at sea level, I would say it corresponds with 2.03 ata and it comes from a real D9 (ETC 504 included).

Fw 190 D-9 Speed

DarkglamJG52 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2005, 02:13:00 PM »

While ata is not printed, look at curve 5 showing near 640 kmh (397mph) at sea level

Wmaker · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2005, 03:32:12 PM »

Ever since first seeing that data I've thought that that would be my dream piston engined perk plane!

Naudet · « **Reply #6 on:** April 01, 2005, 06:10:07 AM »

Mando, this data is calculated, it comes from a summary about FW190D performance.

I have gone very deep into researching the performance of the D9 as you might know and so i can tell with 99% certainty that there excists no flight test of any D-Series FW190 using either Erhöhte Notleistung or MW50.
Speed graph that contain curves for those powersettings are calculated.
Know tests of D9 at Langenhagen and Rechlin where done at a max power setting of ~1750PS@3250rpm@1,5ata.

And if you read the thread in the LEMB you will notice that so far no engine power curve was found that corresponds to the 397mph graph.
Power of this setting is somewhere around 2400PS. Ask Henning he can calculated the power for you.

After years of research into the D9 and many talks to Bryan Bury, Willaume, Crumpp and also Butch2K, i must admit that for the D-Series of the FW190 we face a scarce source situation. In late '44 and early '45 the german research resources were extremely limited. Most systems were no longer evaluated like in 41, 42 or even 43.
Best example is the MW50 system, sadly the FW190D that was supposed to flight test the system was destroyed on a landing before testing began. After that the MW50 system seems to have only been gone through ground testing in the V58 if i remember correctly (you can look in up in D. Hermanns FW190 Long Nose).
Neither Bryan nor Willaume could tell me if an allied performance flight test of the FW190D survived up to today. We know they should be there, cause both the RAE and the US AF had some D-Series planes to test flight. But noone could yet dig out those reports, they seem to have vanished.
For the FW190A it's a different picture, because the BMW801F tests were done in '43 and so there are some evaluation showing the performance gain due to boost pressure increase.

@GScholz: Look again at the graph and you will see that the curve for the D9 with 2.03ata has the shape that fits to the supercharger of the JUMO213A. A D11 would have either a JUMO213F or EB which are both high alt engines and would provide a performance very similar to the D12/13 curve in the table.

MANDO · « **Reply #7 on:** April 01, 2005, 06:40:29 AM »

Naudet, which chart is calculated? The one from Jan 45 posted by Crumpp or the one posted by my dated march 45 (hardly readable)? Or both? Note that the top speeds at sea level are quite different, 386 mph the first and 397mph the second.

Which are the last dates of the TAM reports you mention?

Naudet · « **Reply #8 on:** April 01, 2005, 07:09:04 AM »

Both are calculated.

Think Dez '44 or Jan'45 for the TAM reports. Do you own D. Hermanns Book? If not, buy it, it's a must read. From my viewpoint it's the new reference if it comes to FW190D developement and performance history and he presents many original documents.

MANDO · « **Reply #9 on:** April 01, 2005, 10:14:57 AM »

Problem may be the info from jan 45 to the end of the war.

If these TAM reports are older than Jan 45 then they do not give us an accurate idea about possible higher ata clearance along the last months.

Naudet · « **Reply #10 on:** April 01, 2005, 11:08:53 AM »

Quote

If these TAM reports are older than Jan 45 then they do not give us an accurate idea about possible higher ata clearance along the last months.

As so far none brought up later reports and those reports mentioned never give a hind to a power level above 2100PS, the most simple and most logical solution is that there never was one until the end of the war.

Any discussion of the operational use and possible performance would be highly speculative, not supported by any source i know.

I happen to visit the Archive of the german museum in munich in march to find some interesting documents about the FW190D and JUMO213A.
I am especially interested in handbooks and flight reports, if i run accross a note, passage or whatsoever indicating that D9s ever flew at a higher power level than 2100PS i will be the happiest man alive, but i don't think it will be there.

Crumpp · « **Reply #11 on:** April 04, 2005, 06:42:28 AM »

Mando,

Naudet knows what he is talking about when it comes to the Dora.

Ignore that chart for anything except the FW-190A's.

Some Dora Charts which you might find useful:

Jumo 213A Power:

Dora Performance:

BTW,
Naudet did you get on the Members Only Section? Bunch of new pictures going to be posted. Including a film of pilots view from "Black 3" coming soon.

All the best,

Crumpp

Naudet · « **Reply #12 on:** April 04, 2005, 07:33:50 AM »

Ah thanks for posting the images.

The JUMO213A chart Crumpp presents is the chart that was/is responsible for most of the missunderstandings when it comes to power curve/speed curve allignment.

This is a chart for the JUMO213A 1900PS Basis Engine and it is NOT representative for the FW190D9s in service with the LW.

The power curve on this chart that tops out at 2240PS at SL, is very likely the 2.02ata setting.
Note the 2100PS line has not gear changes, why this is so, i yet do not know.

It will not fit to the climb/speed data provided here. I explained that in the LEMB already.

A representative chart for FW190Ds can be found in the PRO document AIR 40/74. It contains a translated DIN A3 format table showing all power settings for the JUMO213A 1750PS Basis engine.
There should also be an orignal german power chart in AIR 40/74, showing not only engine power (sadly missing the 1900PS line)but also exhaust thrust information.

@Crumpp: Not lately will see if i find the time on the WE. Private issues take up most of my attention currently. Allowing me only to look through the forums from work. And at work i don't have the link to the members section.

MANDO · « **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2005, 07:38:43 AM »

Crumpp, your Dora speed chart is just the chart I posted, there is the misterious curve 3 (sonder Notleistung mit A lader Bodenmotor? Note that this power setting is not shown in the Jumo chart) with 397mph at sea level.

Naudet also indicates that these are calculated curves (I dont find much sense on calculated curves as late as March 45).

Based on TAM reports, Naudet indicates that maximum allowed ata was 1.8 (in fact 1.81) for Dec 44, but there is no more info about allowed ata, for example, for March 45.

Naudet · « **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2005, 07:48:48 AM »

Mando, i can guaranty you that those charts are calculated, cause i not only own the graphs themself but also the accompanying pages which show the calculations. And before Byran removed the originals from his D9 page, those pages were also available there.
If i remember correctly the entire report can be found in the Smithsonian archive.