Author Topic: Dresden (Read 2021 times)

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 12, 2005, 02:59:14 PM »

The whole war was a sad thing dresden is a little drop on the chart unfortunaly.

The only thing i always think off is little children who didn't have a clue they died in all colours and races, its always sad.

But is was germany who set the tone (Warchau, Rotterdam, Sarajevo )

Not to mention the luftwaffe strafing refugees along the roads in the early years of the war.

Offcourse the luftwaffe wasn't nazi but they served it.

I have nothing with it.

Thrawn · « **Reply #31 on:** April 12, 2005, 04:16:49 PM »

A wise man once said, "Don't start nuthin', won't be nuthin'.".

If the Germans didn't want Dresdan nuked, I guess they shouldn't have gone and started that war that cost millions of lives. **** em.

Angus · « **Reply #32 on:** April 12, 2005, 04:21:09 PM »

Like I said, Dresden was a sad thing. WW2 was basically a disaster anyway, and if there is any remedy to make a point out of what happened, it is OUR duty to figure it out and prevent something like this from happening again.
And, the first thing I see in the morning when I walk to the front door is a painting of Dresden as it was, before the war. It was painted after the war though.
I can probably get it photograped/scanned if you're interested.
Now, from Bug:
"The only thing i always think off is little children who didn't have a clue they died in all colours and races, its always sad. "
Exactly!
And from Izzy:
"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Angus
Anyway, Dresden was a sad thing, and it's a pity that the event is fuelling Neo-Nazism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something I can fully agree on with you. "

Hehe, accept my hand about that, absolutely

bunch · « **Reply #33 on:** April 12, 2005, 07:09:06 PM »

Dresden would have been so much worse if

had been hurt

scott123 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 13, 2005, 09:24:00 AM »

What I find more disturbing about the Dresden debacle,is that around 70 P 51 s straffed women and children, and allied pow's released to clean up the mess afterwards in low level attacks after the bombers had left.They even straffed the local zoo!

This was the type of behaviour we so despised the Germans for during the fall of France.Attacking refugees.

I don't blame a single bomber crew for Dresden,it was just another target.I have more difficulty with the straffing p 51s,they could see their targets!

I don't like the way neo fascist's have latched on to Dresden to defend their disgusting ideology,but I believe Dresden was a big mistake by the allies and Proved that strategic bombing alone could not end wars.Hitler at this stage of the war felt betrayed by the German people, and seemed to want them to suffer,so the war dragged on despite Dresden, Hamburg and the rest.
In the end,if it was a choice between Dresden & Belsen.Then I choose Dresden.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #35 on:** April 13, 2005, 09:47:31 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by scott123
What I find more disturbing about the Dresden debacle,is that around 70 P 51 s straffed women and children, and allied pow's released to clean up the mess afterwards in low level attacks after the bombers had left.They even straffed the local zoo!

This was the type of behaviour we so despised the Germans for during the fall of France.Attacking refugees.

I don't blame a single bomber crew for Dresden,it was just another target.I have more difficulty with the straffing p 51s,they could see their targets!

I don't like the way neo fascist's have latched on to Dresden to defend their disgusting ideology,but I believe Dresden was a big mistake by the allies and Proved that strategic bombing alone could not end wars.Hitler at this stage of the war felt betrayed by the German people, and seemed to want them to suffer,so the war dragged on despite Dresden, Hamburg and the rest.
In the end,if it was a choice between Dresden & Belsen.Then I choose Dresden.

Read the article in the link. You might change your mind on the straffing.

Angus · « **Reply #36 on:** April 13, 2005, 10:00:29 AM »

Hehe, nice pic of Kurt Vonnegut.
Now, Dresden again.
Dunno about the strafing, - first time I heard of it. Anyway, as I said, there was not much mercy in the air those days.
My wife's stepfather's dad died around that time. They got strafed my P51's at the funeral. Another part of Germany though.
Sort of makes you think. Like there was nothing unusable to bend and end Germany at the time. And the camps being recently discovered fuelled it all up.
Was just reading a biography of an inmate of Sachsenhausen. When the inmates saw Berlin burn, they were cheering.

All very sad and ugly.

Tilt · « **Reply #37 on:** April 13, 2005, 12:29:48 PM »

I always wonder at the use of the term "strategic" bombing.

Dresden was of course a part of a strategm................

Harris said clearly that part of the goal was to break the will of the German people to fight on............. Churchill was quite clear also.

Whermakt and the LW took part in many campaigns where a major plank of success was to attrit enemy military and civilian morale. (Londons Blitz is an example)

If mass sufferring of the enemies populace is a tool to break morale then it is also a tool to invoke fear and by that fear becomes a form of terror.

Since the kidnapping of a passenger plane in the 60's thru to 9/11 terror / terrorism / terrorists are defined diferently. It is a actually a form of publicity to raise the banner of some cause or another the act its self "wins" nothing........... its just a form of escalation.

Funerals have been straffed, weddings bombed, villages massacred in many theatres of war and will continue to be so..........in the main these are errors......(I did not say mistakes)..........often componded by cover up or excuse rather than simply admitting fault.

If ever (cod forbid) large nations with strong civilian infrastructures come to war again on this earth then those infrastructures must be attacked and if morale is part of your enemies sustaining force....................

now move this to O club

scott123 · « **Reply #38 on:** April 13, 2005, 12:41:17 PM »

I hope the Straffing is a myth,I first heard about it from a Historian on the history channel and he was defending the Dresden raid,and putting this forward as a more despicable act that history has forgotten.

All the information I have read on Dresden mentions it,as fact.

At this point in the war it was normal for Fighter escorts,after leaving their Bomber charges to go free ranging over the German countryside,looking for targets of opportunity,since the LW were seldom seen.

I hope History is wrong about the mustangs.

Angus · « **Reply #39 on:** April 15, 2005, 07:40:44 AM »

Just stumbled across a big operation description, - happened in about the same time as Dresden.
Some 2000 allied fighters were roaming all over the place, strafing everything that moved basically.
It was about paralyzing German transport.
Will try to see if it fits, - operation name etc.

Kurfürst · « **Reply #40 on:** April 15, 2005, 08:01:35 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by scott123
I hope the Straffing is a myth,I first heard about it from a Historian on the history channel and he was defending the Dresden raid,and putting this forward as a more despicable act that history has forgotten.

I hope History is wrong about the mustangs.

Most likely not, wheter there was strafing in Dresden in particular... but I heard that there was strafing order given out the escort fighters late in the war, to strafe refugees, civillians.

It was to spread panic. No lesser man said that than Chuck Yeager himself, if I recall correctly, when they were given this order, he said something like this to his mate, 'We`d better win this war, or they will hang us for this with a good reason.' Most of them seen this as something sick... Maybe some Yeager book has more on that.

GScholz · « **Reply #41 on:** April 15, 2005, 09:09:54 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by scott123
I hope the Straffing is a myth,I first heard about it from a Historian on the history channel and he was defending the Dresden raid,and putting this forward as a more despicable act that history has forgotten.

All the information I have read on Dresden mentions it,as fact.

At this point in the war it was normal for Fighter escorts,after leaving their Bomber charges to go free ranging over the German countryside,looking for targets of opportunity,since the LW were seldom seen.

I hope History is wrong about the mustangs.

Perhaps this old post by Puck will answer your question:

Quote

Originally posted by Puck
I try never to use rockets on the church in hopes HTC has modeled the congregation running out in the street after the first pass. I think you get extra perks for gunning down the pastor.

On a less tongue in cheek topic, one of my good friend's (good friends are EXPENSIVE now days) mother in law was IN germany during the war. Towards the end she was riding her bicycle on the roads around her farm and get straffed by allied aircraft (apparently this happened more than once). I discovered this one fourth of july while firing off tracers from my XM177E2; she went into a panic attack. Talk about feeling HORRIBLE! Won't EVER forget the look on her face.

Then you have to wonder what's so dangerous about a 14 year old girl on a bicycle that she deserved a straffing run. I suppose she COULD be carring top secret communications from Hitler to Eichmann, but out in the middle of NOWHERE?

Dunno. Pretty easy to judge people from 3,000 miles and 57 years away. Hope they got what they were after.

Angus · « **Reply #42 on:** April 15, 2005, 09:50:03 AM »

No mercy.
Just like the French roads in 1940.

GScholz · « **Reply #43 on:** April 15, 2005, 10:07:37 AM »

Kurfürst · « **Reply #44 on:** April 15, 2005, 01:37:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
No mercy.
Just like the French roads in 1940.

Except that there were no orders issued in 1940 from the LW to strafe civillians on the road... if they had stafed civillians, that happened because the pilot couldn`t tell apart the deploying french army coloumn from a refugee column (and they often mixed up on the road). That`s quite different from explicitely ordering the pilots to shoot civis. And a poor excuse.