Another one to grumble about

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Skydancer
Oh dear!

Have you been to africa?

Some of the kindest most generous people I have met, I met in Kenya. They have next to nothing compared to us yet still they would give you the shirt off their back.

As for shooting the rare and Beautifull Wildlife for some sick fun well you are a prat for even suggesting it. Its one of that continents greatest assets. And a huge money earner for those nations in terms of tourism.

Now let me try to reply in simple terms to your question  What do you think needs to be done?

My answer 1 Cancel the huge foreign debt owed by these nations.

Answer 2 Provide sexual health advice and free condoms. Give these countries the means to fight AIDS. Free or very cheap AIDS drugs.

Answer 3 Stop ripping off poor nations producing crops like Coffee, Cocoa, Sugar, Tobacco, Tea, etc All sought after commodities in Richer nations. Pay a fair price for the goods. Enable Producers to make money rather than subsist. Go buy Fair trade goods if they have such a thing in your country. We can buy them here. Its a small start.

Answer4 Educate people there. Assist in Education programs fund schools so that the next generation are better able and equipped  to govern.

Answer5 Train Military forces in these nations in effective peace keeping operations. End the sale of Jet fighters, Hi tech weapons systems that cost millions and serve no purpose other than to wage aggressive warfare.

Mediate in territorial disputes usualy caused by the arbitrary drawing of national boundarys during colonial days.

Invest in these countries top provide jobs and industry. Etc Etc.

The Marshal plan was drawn up to help re build Europe. Maybe a new Marshal plan funded by the Richest nations needs to be drawn up to help Africa and other poor nations?

I Believe that we who are wealthy comparatively can enjoy our wealth. There is nothing wrong in that as long as we also accept we have a responsibility to those who are not. Whilst I am not personaly a practising Christian I would say that seems to be the "Christian" thing to do.

Ultimately by helping out others we help ourselves as we make the world a less conflicted more equitable place to be.

Did it ever occur to you that part of the problem in areas like the middle east is that the vast majority of people there, live much worse than you or I. lots of unemployed disgruntled young men with time on their hands looking for a reason for their plight might just externalise their frustration. When you have a rich Powerfull country like the US supporting a nation like Israel that in the arab worlds eyes has disposessed peiople of their land and homes then that big powerful nation can easily become the enemy. Envy, idleness, poverty, breeding frustration and anger which finds an outlet and is directed against those that appear to be ( maybe  wrongly ) supporting the opression of fellow people. Boom 9/11

Extend the helping hand and you nip that in the bud.

Truman and Churchill realised that and Germany is now an ally.

What might of happened if we kept Germany down destroyed and in perpetual poverty after WW2 huh?

The versailles treaty led to that and we seem to have learned the lesson after WW2 but forgot it again in our own time.

Do you realy disagree with these principals or is it just a " ***** Skydancer kneejerk diatribe every time?

Wheeeew buddy, ya put up a wall of text and still haven`t said anything, but OK, you get your country right on that.

 So, I see you have a "thing" against hunting. Here`s a thought. Don`t hunt and I will continue with a tradition that goes back to the very beginning of man. Are you a member of PETA also or or you a meat eater that just likes someone else to do the killing for you. Oh wait...I remember you stating in another thread that you eat meat. Well, that answers that question.
As far as Africa`s tourism income because of the animals...yea, it generates some, but not a fraction of what has been generated for a very long time from the hunters from around the world who have been hunting there for a very long time.
  The thought of handing out condoms sort of cracks me up. I`m sure the tribes would enjoy having ready made bladders for their tribal beer.
  Education funding?? We`ve been doing that for ever. Lot`s of great results, huh?
  Jet fighters and high tech miltary weapons keep peace more than anything I know of. In todays world, without them, you are simply an easy target. To survive and even think about keeping some country boundaries and integrity they are a must have. It`s the real world man. Not some nicey nice fantasy book for children`s reading hour. There has been war as long as history has been recorded and there will be war as long as this world exists.
  Trying to mediate in territorial disputes is probably one of the quickest ways known to man to absolutely guarantee conflict. It`s been proven over and over.
  Oppresion had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11. The word of hate the Americans has been instilled there for a very long time. They just finaly had the capability to pull off the cowardly act that they did. Now they are paying for it and the party has just started. Sitting back and doing nothing about it and taking no action to prevent future attacks would be an absolute guarantee of more to come.
 Oh, btw, I beleive Germany had a part in rebuilding their own country. They made an effort. That`s the key.


As far as this little gem of a comment.....

Do you realy disagree with these principals or is it just a " ***** Skydancer kneejerk diatribe every time?

I believe that pretty well has been set for your attempts at bailing out so far. Make the bad man stop. Skydancer/Zulu/Americon or the other names you have tryed to hide behind have nothing to do with it. You still can`t post a bunch of garbage with no basis and not get called on it.

OK, now once again, you have listed a nice long list of things you think needs to be done. You still avoided the questions of how do you propose to create this fairy tale world? Do you have a majic wand? We don`t, that`s for sure. You can`t create a perfect world. It`s way too late for that.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Skydancer
What might of happened if we kept Germany down destroyed and in perpetual poverty after WW2 huh?

The versailles treaty led to that and we seem to have learned the lesson after WW2 but forgot it again in our own time.

Logical flaw in the reasonning.

If Germany was in perpetual poverty why was Germany so powerfull in 1939 ?

The Versailles treaty was not a cause but a consequence.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by straffo
Logical flaw in the reasonning.

If Germany was in perpetual poverty why was Germany so powerfull in 1939 ?

The Versailles treaty was not a cause but a consequence.

AMEN Straffo.  

Karaya

[Skydancer]

Jackal1

Answered your question but as i see its not to your liking. An answer none the less. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

As for the meat thing you don't have to hunt Africa's wildlife in order to put meat on your table. you ought to read my posts more carefully on that subject though I doubt you will as all you are looking for is more ammunition to have a cheap shot rather than a real debate. I'll leave you to ponder that one.
   
So you think all africans are tribesmen with no understanding of the modern world? ( it gets better and better. ) Stop watching Tarzan movies and go travel a bit you might learn something.


We've had the debate about my identity over and over yawns loudly. Just for the record Americon was supposed to be an ironic joke poking fun at you and your ilk,but lost on you as you have a singular lack of ability to laugh at yourself.

Finaly. I have an opinion on what should be done of course. If I had the power or the ability to make it all happen then do you realy think I'd be chatting on this BBs? I'd be way to busy.

So in answer to " how do you propose to create this fairy tale world?" I don't know how but I'm not a president, prime minister, or bill gates ( he's got enuff money ) am I? So its a bit of a daft question.

Just for the record you seem to be an expert what wiould you have our elected representitives do?

Now Straffo and Masher are you seriously trying to argue that the Versailles treaty did not cause public feeling in germany during the 30's to sway people toward the NSDAP!? Please guys go read some history.

And have you all forgotten the Marshal plan of which germany was a huge beneficiary. They got help for losing the war! We in Britain got a huge debt for fighting it and helping win it. We were bankrupted, you guys bailed out the losers! MMMMM seems fair.

Nevertheless it was a sensible strategy to help germany back onto its feet. It made your nation a freind internationaly. rather  than an enemy.

As to why germany was so powerfull in 1939. Because they tore up the treaty of Versailles and ignored it then geared their nation toward war production. They had no choice then but to go to war in order to secure the economic means to ensure expansion of their economy. If you put your eggs in the war basket war is what you have to do. They could have tried trade but they plumped for imperial type expansion. Might have worked had they been a little more clever politicaly. Might have worked but turned out to be a disatrous decision. Not the least because they misread britain's determination to fight completely and thought we might be partners in a world sharing enterprise.  We keep our empire they build a new one for themselves in the east. Cold war between the British empre and the Nazi empire to follow.

 To be honest Jackal1  thank god I only meet you in here and don't have to put up with you in real life, I'm sure the feeling is mutual.  

Thanks for the discussion you other guys but on this one we seriously differ.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Skydancer
Jackal1

Answered your question but as i see its not to your liking. An answer none the less. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

No, you have answered nothing, nada, zilch. All you have done so far is put forth fantasy like ideas with no solutions or answers as to how you propose to get things that way. You once again make suggestions as how things should be and express wishs that you suggest are correct, nothing more. Another one of your "I want someone  else to do these things because I think they are right" posts with no insight on how they should be accomplished.
  Once again princess, when you come up with that majic wand, let us know.

As forv the meat thing you don't have to hunt Africa's wildlife in order to put meat on your table. you ought to read my posts more carefully on that subject though I doubt you will as all you are looking for is more ammunition to have a cheap shot rather than a real debate. I'll leave you to ponder that one.

Nothing really to ponder. Another sell out. Let someone else do your dirty work for you.
  Hunting in Africa would not be done by me on a "have to" basis, but more on a "want to" basis.
I don`t have to "look" for ammo when it comes to you. You freely supply more than could ever possibly be used.

So you think all africans are tribesmen with no understanding of the modern world? ( it gets better and better. ) Stop watching Tarzan movies and go travel a bit you might learn something.

The tribesmen in Africa is what makes or breaks war and disputes in that country, whether they be in the bush or in the cities. Don`t express to have knowledge on something you are so obviously uninformed on.

We've had the debate about my identity over and over yawns loudly. Just for the record Americon was supposed to be an ironic joke poking fun at you and your ilk,but lost on you as you have a singular lack of ability to laugh at yourself.

Hmmm.... I must have missed any debate over your identity. As far as I know there never was even a question about it. Yea, your attempts at jokes or just hilarious. Every thing you have said  that you get nailed on you say was a joke. I`m laughing, but not at your jokes. I`m laughing at your pathetic attempts .

Enough I'm tired of arguing with you Jackal1.

  You haven`t came up with a decent argument yet. You just start rattling stuff , then when you are called on it or asked to explain how you think these things are to come about or asked for some basis on which you come up with these misperceptions, you bail. Just like you are doing now.
What`s this make..about the 20th time now Zulu?

[straffo]

Originally posted by Skydancer
Now Straffo and Masher are you seriously trying to argue that the Versailles treaty did not cause public feeling in germany during the 30's to sway people toward the NSDAP!? Please guys go read some history.

No ,not compleltly it's not the only reason it's more a pretext.
The failure of the post-war German elites is also a reason don't you think ?
Didn't Hindeburg played a dangerous game ?

And have you all forgotten the Marshal plan of which germany was a huge beneficiary. They got help for losing the war! We in Britain got a huge debt for fighting it and helping win it. We were bankrupted, you guys bailed out the losers! MMMMM seems fair.

Nevertheless it was a sensible strategy to help germany back onto its feet. It made your nation a freind internationaly. rather  than an enemy.
[/B]

Sorry but I don't see the link with the versailles treaty.

As to why germany was so powerfull in 1939. Because they tore up the treaty of Versailles and ignored it then geared their nation toward war production. They had no choice then but to go to war in order to secure the economic means to ensure expansion of their economy. If you put your eggs in the war basket war is what you have to do. They could have tried trade but they plumped for imperial type expansion. Might have worked had they been a little more clever politicaly. Might have worked but turned out to be a disatrous decision. Not the least because they misread britain's determination to fight completely and thought we might be partners in a world sharing enterprise.  We keep our empire they build a new one for themselves in the east. Cold war between the British empre and the Nazi empire to follow.
[/B]

You described yourself and better than I can how it was the will of some German more than a direct consequence of the treaty.

Thanks for the discussion you other guys but on this one we seriously differ. [/B]

Look like

[Trell]

Westerners Hunting in africia  if probable a big source of income for these people you claim to love.  People spent tens of thousands of dollars to do it.  It is not like they are chain gunning the animals,  They kill just a couple.  It is like dear hunting the states.

As long as they are not going after the endargered ones.

[Skydancer]

So Jackal1 me old mucker. your fond pof telling me I'm an idiot who hasn't a clue. You are also always asking for answers to your questions which I give but because they don't suit you you ignore and ask for more! sheesh!

Now here is the question I asked you. just trying again for the secomnd time of asking.

"Just for the record you seem to be an expert what would you have our elected representitives do?"

Ok there it is again. So lets see if you actualy practise what you preach. Answer the question mr Jackal1.

Straffo I grant you its not the only reason but the percieved harshness of the treaty of versailles by the germans and particularly the german millitary and the middle classes was one of the factors that gave rise to the NAZI party and WW2 just as the issue of disparity between the living standards of our nations and of those in the ME and Africa is potentialy one of the factors in breeding terrorism. Not the only one but a significant one.

The origional argument was that by keeping nations poor politiicaly impotent we aid  the conditions that produce terrorism and the perception by people in those countries that we are the enemy.

Just as the conditions in Germany post ww1 caused resentment amongst germans.

Likewise post WW2 a different strategy was tried. called the Marshal plan which extended the hand of help to former enemies. that helping hand made them allies. So maybe we should do the same for the poorer nations in thisworld where terrorists grow from or whose peoples they exploit for their cause.

I think that might make it clearer?

[Skydancer]

Still waiting Mr

( bit unfair on the Jackal realy he's probably better looking

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Skydancer
So Jackal1 me old mucker. your fond pof telling me I'm an idiot who hasn't a clue. You are also always asking for answers to your questions which I give but because they don't suit you you ignore and ask for more! sheesh!
 

  Well Zulu, number one, as I have said before, you have answered absolutely zero questions. You have only put forth some fantasies that you state would cure all these proposed problems that you came up with. From where, nobody knows. The question  concerns how and what. Anyone can come up with some off the wall BS, such as yourself, but you have yet to express who , how and what you expect to do these things. Of course I allready know the answer. The same as all your lame bantering. It`s you want someone else to do them, the way you want them done, as long as you don`t have to be involved or put out any effort. That`s why, once again you are doing your best to divert from your original statements. You have no idea, no clue, or no basis for your statements, as usual. You are just prattling along waiting for the next chance where you can jump in and blame the Evil U.S. Empire for all of your woes. Otherwise you will just bail when nailed on something every time.


 

Now here is the question I asked you. just trying again for the secomnd time of asking"Just for the record you seem to be an expert what would you have our elected representitives do?"
Ok there it is again. So lets see if you actualy practise what you preach. Answer the question mr Jackal1..

  Sure, no problem. I have answered this in many threads for you, even before the question was asked.

Now pay close attention and maybe it will sink in. ANSWER-------> I could care less what your elected representatives do , or more like what they do not do. And once again I could care less about the interworkings of your country.
  The point is you still seem to be amazed when you come in here, on a U.S. based board. owned by a U.S. based country and start U.S. bashing when someone calls your hand. DUH! Here`s your sign. First of all I would think that you might have a little more knowledge of your own country.

Now you got any other attempts at bailing out than that?

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Skydancer
Still waiting Mr

 

Well if it gets too rough on you waiting for a reply you could always go to e-bay and see if you can buy a clue or a life.
Your not real high on my priorities list.
You will be replyed to if and when I decide to. So sorry to burst your bubble.  

[Skydancer]

"I could care less what your elected representatives do , or more like what they do not do. And once again I could care less about the interworkings of your country."

That is not an answer.  

"our" refers to both the US and UK and even europe for that matter. You are very fond of telling me that I only come up with dreams and fantasy. Yet you yourself have not once told me what you think should be done in regards to the points I made. So no suprise but no answer Mr Jackal1.

You do not answer the question at all. I would invite other BBs members to respond. Do any of you actualy think Jackal ever answers a question?

I'll play ball though. You say you couldn't care a less? well why are you responding to a thread which discusses these very issues. If you don't care or have nothing to say of value why comment at all? Unless of course it is to post a few "get lost Englishman comments or a few insults?"

You have added nothing of value to this discussion nor have you answered the question.

You are a tiresome irritation realy.

How about you try responding when you actualy have something interesting to say on the issue in hand. Otherwise you could always move along and start some lame redneck BS thread of your own. How about the xenophobe this board should only be for US citizens thread? That seems about all you ever realy have to say.

Honestly mate I give up on you. There realy is no point in even attempting to answer your questions as you don't read the answer and don't accept anything unless its said by you. Which aint a fat lot as you realy don't have anything to say.

Now toddle off and smoke one of those  skydancer ciggarettes!  It might give you something more usefull to do.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Skydancer

"our" refers to both the US and UK and even europe for that matter. You are very fond of telling me that I only come up with dreams and fantasy. Yet you yourself have not once told me what you think should be done in regards to the points I made. So no suprise but no answer Mr Jackal1.
 

Well that`s about as good as it gets slick.
The "our" part is "your" head. There is no such thing.
As far as I what I think needs to be done about the points you make....Well I`m still waiting on you to make a point. You are off on a "save Africa" tour in your mind. As far as what my country should do....That`s been answered many times for you......Absolutely nothing. You just worry about what you want your country to do. I mean after all, this is your crusade.

You are a tiresome irritation realy

  Well...that`s nice. Proud to donate to the cause.

How about the xenophobe this board should only be for US citizens thread?

Once again you seem amazed by a simple fact and you completely misinterept it. This board , as far as I know, can and is used by many citizens of many countries. If you come here and start the U.S. bashing BS just expect to be flailed like a pecan tree. It`s not citizens of any country I have a problem with. Just ones like you who spout off lame crap, with no basis and no understanding, and frankly not a clue about what you speak of in general.

Honestly mate I give up on you. There realy is no point in even attempting to answer your questions as you don't read the answer and don't accept anything unless its said by you.

You keep saying that, but you can`t resist coming back for more and making an even bigger fool of yourself.
I can`t accept an answer from you if you do not provide one. That has yet to be done. You have only came up with some off the wall fantasy about saving Africa. You have not provided any answers. You have only made more questions.
Before this you suggested the U.S. get all cozy with Castro. Then you suggested what a great place Nam was and how evil it was of the U.S. to have engaged them. Now it`s Africa. You worry a lot about the U.S. and it seems very little about your own country.

How about you try responding when you actualy have something interesting to say on the issue in hand.

  The issue you seem to think is "in hand" is Africa.
This thread started out as the reaction of the Iraqi people to the chnages in their life.
I have a good idea what you have "in hand" and it`s not the issue here.

[Skydancer]

!

I give up. Mr super f*** the rest of the world as long as my bellybutton is ok.

Your on a flame bait mission from God Mr Jackal. Go smoke another skydancer ciggarette and chill out man. It is you who keeps coming back me old cocker. I'm just having a larf playing you.

Other than that there realy seems little point in continuing this as you still haven't responded by answering the question directly and never do.


sheesh and you call me evasive!

[Jackal1]

Bail attempt number 4 in this thread alone.
Your not evasive Zulu, just lame.

Your on a flame bait mission from God Mr Jackal.

You are nibbling on a bare hook there hoss.
Without nibblers there can be no point in baiting.