Author Topic: Another one to grumble about  (Read 1258 times)

Offline Scherf

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... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2005, 12:00:48 PM »
great read. good luck to Iraq.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2005, 01:23:10 PM »
We can only do so much to help the Iraqi people get back on their feet. At some point they will have to go it alone. I wish the Iraqi people the best in their endeavors to build a peaceful, secure nation.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2005, 02:02:53 PM »
Interesting.

The people interviewd do seem to be happy (in a qualified way ) about the current stuation vis a vis the comparison between the old regime and the new.  So I guess I stand corrected on some things.

However this is only a small sample.  I would still question whether it was appropriate to invade the country and enforce change. I would also question, as this is indeed seems to be the new American strategy of using military force to ensure regime change, why the Iraqi regime was the one chosen when the US govt has failed to act so decisively on other equaly bad regimes around the world such as some of those in Africa. It's got to be self interest rather than some sense of generously spreading freedom.

Personaly I still think, on balance, that the Use of military force should be avoided, unless one's nation is directly threatened or the conflict is so close as to de stabilise the region in which the country using force is.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2005, 03:35:13 PM »
saddam did not comply with the  UN CEASE FIRE agreements he signed in 1991. But we know the real reason bush invaded was so his oil cronies could steal all the oil and sell it to china.

coo coo ka choo

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2005, 06:57:33 PM »
a Good read thaks for the post.

Skydancer,

I'm no longer in any mood to debate this but will offer my perspective.  You make a valid point about self served interests.  BUT, the model is all wrong.  To apply one basic strategy to all regimes is flawed at best.  For example (if it was so desired by my country): the way to handle North Korea would probably be entirley different than Iran.  Same goes for most caotic African nations.  Strategic and Economic interests aside I think that history will show this as a great example of foresight (sp)  Only time will tell however, and the road will allways be rocky before it gets paved.

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2005, 07:06:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skydancer
Interesting.

The people interviewd do seem to be happy (in a qualified way ) about the current stuation vis a vis the comparison between the old regime and the new.  So I guess I stand corrected on some things.

However this is only a small sample.  I would still question whether it was appropriate to invade the country and enforce change. I would also question, as this is indeed seems to be the new American strategy of using military force to ensure regime change, why the Iraqi regime was the one chosen when the US govt has failed to act so decisively on other equaly bad regimes around the world such as some of those in Africa. It's got to be self interest rather than some sense of generously spreading freedom.

Personaly I still think, on balance, that the Use of military force should be avoided, unless one's nation is directly threatened or the conflict is so close as to de stabilise the region in which the country using force is.


  Man o man. It`s rerun season again allready?
Last time went into this you bailed as usual.
Leaving everything else out of it, which is a great feat I might add, but what about the Iraqi people? What about the Kurds? How about Kuwait?
You always bring up Africa in these discussions. Once again, we have been there, done that and it was neither appreciated nor accepted. If a nation is totaly set on destroying itself, there is not much anyone can do.
What is your country doing for Africa?
Africa is going to have to get some direction and goals for themselves before much can be accomplished.
Personaly I say let`s take the place and give me complete hunting rights. :D
« Last Edit: April 11, 2005, 07:08:57 PM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2005, 04:39:48 AM »
Jackal1 you ask "What is your country doing for Africa?" My response would be not enough, and neither is the rest of Europe.

So we areall squareon that one. Though we did have troops in Sierra Leone.

What we should be doing is empowering these countries neighbours to deal with the issue. Not wading in all guns blazing imposing our viewof how things be. I include my own misguided govt's intervention, in this statement. We are after all both mired in Iraq.

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2005, 05:30:37 AM »
The thing is we are not "mired" in Iraq. We made the decision that something had to be done and we did and are doing it. We will continue to take part in the new beginning for this country and will be proud of doing so.

I`m sort of curious what you have in mind by this statement.......

"What we should be doing is empowering these countries neighbours to deal with the issue. Not wading in all guns blazing imposing our viewof how things be. I include my own misguided govt's intervention, in this statement."

I also noticed that once again you skirted the issue of the Iraqis, Kurds and Kuwait.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2005, 09:33:52 AM »
It goes back to my view that unless we tackle the poverty of these nations and improve living conditions etc, Cancel debt, deal with the AIDS crisis in Africa, Invest in these countries, then we are storing up problems for ourselves as richer nations, in the future. The politics of envy are real and sooner or later these poorer nations are going to look at us as the enemy. Zimbabwe is a good example.

We need freinds not enemies as your govt should have learned. 9/11 didn't happen because these people felt affinity with the US did it?

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2005, 05:56:10 PM »
Yea, that`s real cool. Now you want to answer the questions?
What do you think needs to be done. You always seem to come up with this needs to be done or that needs to be done, but never what and how.
"Not  enough" doesn`t really tell me anything. The question was ... what is your country doing for Africa not what is your country not doing?
Why all the interest in Africa? Africa is a great place to hunt. Other than that......phhhffffftttt.

As far as the folks involved in 9/11, I`m willing to bet they wished they would have stayed at home and played pin the tail on the camel. :0 Getting your *** kicked ten fold probably wasn`t what they had in mind.

Quote
We need freinds not enemies as your govt should have learned.


Tell ya what. Let`s leave my country`s government out of it and discuss your country`s state of affairs and just how peachy you think the job they are doing is. Seems to me you spend all your time posting and worrying about what our country is doing and seem to know so very little about your own country.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 06:01:08 PM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2005, 06:23:25 PM »
Oh dear!

Have you been to africa?

Some of the kindest most generous people I have met, I met in Kenya. They have next to nothing compared to us yet still they would give you the shirt off their back.

As for shooting the rare and Beautifull Wildlife for some sick fun well you are a prat for even suggesting it. Its one of that continents greatest assets. And a huge money earner for those nations in terms of tourism.

Now let me try to reply in simple terms to your question  What do you think needs to be done?

My answer 1 Cancel the huge foreign debt owed by these nations.

Answer 2 Provide sexual health advice and free condoms. Give these countries the means to fight AIDS. Free or very cheap AIDS drugs.

Answer 3 Stop ripping off poor nations producing crops like Coffee, Cocoa, Sugar, Tobacco, Tea, etc All sought after commodities in Richer nations. Pay a fair price for the goods. Enable Producers to make money rather than subsist. Go buy Fair trade goods if they have such a thing in your country. We can buy them here. Its a small start.

Answer4 Educate people there. Assist in Education programs fund schools so that the next generation are better able and equipped  to govern.

Answer5 Train Military forces in these nations in effective peace keeping operations. End the sale of Jet fighters, Hi tech weapons systems that cost millions and serve no purpose other than to wage aggressive warfare.

Mediate in territorial disputes usualy caused by the arbitrary drawing of national boundarys during colonial days.

Invest in these countries top provide jobs and industry. Etc Etc.

The Marshal plan was drawn up to help re build Europe. Maybe a new Marshal plan funded by the Richest nations needs to be drawn up to help Africa and other poor nations?

I Believe that we who are wealthy comparatively can enjoy our wealth. There is nothing wrong in that as long as we also accept we have a responsibility to those who are not. Whilst I am not personaly a practising Christian I would say that seems to be the "Christian" thing to do.

Ultimately by helping out others we help ourselves as we make the world a less conflicted more equitable place to be.

Did it ever occur to you that part of the problem in areas like the middle east is that the vast majority of people there, live much worse than you or I. lots of unemployed disgruntled young men with time on their hands looking for a reason for their plight might just externalise their frustration. When you have a rich Powerfull country like the US supporting a nation like Israel that in the arab worlds eyes has disposessed peiople of their land and homes then that big powerful nation can easily become the enemy. Envy, idleness, poverty, breeding frustration and anger which finds an outlet and is directed against those that appear to be ( maybe  wrongly ) supporting the opression of fellow people. Boom 9/11

Extend the helping hand and you nip that in the bud.

Truman and Churchill realised that and Germany is now an ally.

What might of happened if we kept Germany down destroyed and in perpetual poverty after WW2 huh?

The versailles treaty led to that and we seem to have learned the lesson after WW2 but forgot it again in our own time.

Do you realy disagree with these principals or is it just a " ***** Skydancer kneejerk diatribe every time?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 06:26:28 PM by Skydancer »

Offline Stringer

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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2005, 09:55:08 PM »
Skydancer:

USAID Accelerates Child Survival Programs

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WASHINGTON, DC 20523
PRESS OFFICE
http://www.usaid.gov/
Press: (202) 712-4320
Public Information: (202) 712-4810

2004-109

REVISED
December 20, 2004

Contact: USAID Press Office

WASHINGTON, DC -- Today, the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) announced a new child survival contract to fight needless childhood deaths in the developing world. Supporting families and communities, the $100 million contract will help expand effective child health interventions like immunization, Vitamin A supplementation and treatment of diarrhea, pneumonia and malaria.

"Nearly 11 million children die each year of preventable diseases," said Dr. E. Anne Peterson, Assistant Administrator of USAID's Bureau for Global Health. "We have a major opportunity and a moral obligation to implement low-cost, lifesaving treatment for children in the developing world."

The new contract bolsters USAID's role as a leader in the global Child Survival Partnership, a multi-donor program established to focus attention on the dire health needs of children in developing countries, with the goal of saving six million children each year by 2015.

USAID's child survival agenda has been active since 1985, when Congress created the Child Survival Program. Since then, USAID has obligated more than $5 billion for child survival, HIV/AIDS and other infectious diseases. In addition, USAID has provided more than $2.5 billion to child survival programs in developing countries for maternal and child immunization; prevention and treatment of respiratory infections, diarrheal diseases, and malaria; breastfeeding; nutrition, and water and sanitation.


And this:

US Aid in Darfur
U.S. AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT
BUREAU FOR DEMOCRACY, CONFLICT, AND HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE (DCHA)
OFFICE OF U.S. FOREIGN DISASTER ASSISTANCE (OFDA)
DARFUR – Humanitarian Emergency
Fact Sheet #12, Fiscal Year (FY) 2005 December 17, 2004
Note: This report updates fact sheet #11, dated December 10, 2004.
DARFUR EMERGENCY – NUMBERS AT A GLANCE SOURCE
Conflict-Affected Persons in 2.48 million people U.N. Office for the Coordination of
Darfur and Eastern Chad Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA)
Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) 1.65 million people OCHA
in Darfur
Sudanese Refugees 200,000 people U.N. High Commissioner for
in Eastern Chad Refugees (UNHCR)
Conflict-Affected Persons in 1.16 million people during October U.N. World Food Program (WFP)
Darfur Receiving Food Assistance 1.3 million people during November
Crude Mortality Rates (CMR)1 and North Darfur – 1.5 CMR; 2.5 U5MR Preliminary data from the U.N.
Under-five Mortality Rates
(U5MR)2 for Darfur
West Darfur – 2.9 CMR; 3.1 U5MR
Kalma Camp (South Darfur) – 3.8 CMR;
World Health Organization (WHO)
11.7 U5MR
Total FY 2004 – 2005 USG Humanitarian Assistance to Darfur....................... ............ $290,501,434
Total FY 2004 – 2005 USG Humanitarian Assistance to Eastern Chad ......................... $75,672,072
Total FY 2004 – 2005 USG Humanitarian Assistance for the Darfur Emergency ...... $366,173,506
Total FY 2003 – 2005 USG Humanitarian Assistance for the Darfur Emergency ...... $368,245,080


Just two name a couple of examples......

Offline john9001

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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2005, 12:12:07 AM »
i do not think we should get involved in the internal affairs of african countries, they will work it out.

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2005, 01:55:37 AM »
Yep thats the kind of thing stringer. Much better reading than some report on another bombing in Iraq.

I'm not saying that the richer nations are not doing anything. Just that we shoulsd cencentrate on this kind of stuff rather than fighting wars.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4337239.stm#

All well and good but in one sense Jackal1 is correct in that Govts need to stop talking and start acting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4309507.stm

Another interesting quick read.