Author Topic: Thinking out loud...a CT question  (Read 1524 times)

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2005, 11:00:43 AM »
One ability that isn't present, but that would be useful, would be tha ability to allow aircraft in, but deny them some ordnance packages.  If the Spit XIV is denied its bombs and rockets and the Tempest is denied its bombs it would encourge the use of those high end fighters in the air-to-air roll rather than a universal roll.

That would be a change for HTC to impliment, if they thought it was worth it.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2005, 12:22:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy
Dan.

I know this is a bit off topic and risks to hijack but I still think it does add to the subject.

It is dangerous to try to make something into something that ones was. (ouch bad english but I hope you understand).

AW was AW. I didnt play it but from what everyone says it was a blast. Though trying to find the same blast in another game, even though AH beeing close, is very dangerous because one risks to always be disapointed. If a game has a "magic" to it its not only due to how the game is implemented. Its just as much a factor of who played it and when it was (both in sence of technical timeline and personal timeline).

Even if the exact same gameplay was implemented in AH that was once in AW the game experience will NEVER be the same.

Im not saying you are trying to make CT into AW. Im just saying one has to be aware of that what once was great was so not only due to the implementation of the game mechanics.

Though it is always good to use past experiences and evolve these into new ideas. Important though is that its always evolved into something new.

Tex


Understood Tex.  Definately not my intent.  It was just an example of how the gameplay could be intense without the need to reset the map.

Probably my biggest beef with AH is the whole idea of "winning" the war this way as it seems to drive the horde mentality where you get a mob over one undefended or little defended base while a sector away you get a mob from the other side doing the same thing with both avoiding the fight so to speak.

I still think if the CT is to be something different, then it has to find different ways to provide goals for those flying in it.   If it's just a mini MA the problems remain the same.

Dan/CorkyJr
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline TheBug

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5652
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2005, 06:27:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
One ability that isn't present, but that would be useful, would be tha ability to allow aircraft in, but deny them some ordnance packages.  If the Spit XIV is denied its bombs and rockets and the Tempest is denied its bombs it would encourge the use of those high end fighters in the air-to-air roll rather than a universal roll.

That would be a change for HTC to impliment, if they thought it was worth it.


This is another good idea.  Is it possible to restrict which bases have ordnance?
的t's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane

Offline TheBug

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5652
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2005, 06:32:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35

I still think if the CT is to be something different, then it has to find different ways to provide goals for those flying in it.   If it's just a mini MA the problems remain the same.

Dan/CorkyJr


I think in a nutshell, that says it all.  Hashing out what those goals are to be would be the next mission, imo.

I see the CT as a place for players to recreate the thrill of WWII air combat in it's various historical theaters, to the extent the game will allow.  I'm not saying that is what is has to be, just how I would like to see it.  How do you guys see it?
的t's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane

Offline TheBug

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5652
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2005, 06:34:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
I honestly dont know.  I'd like to find a way to have them enabled without upsetting the balance of the setup.  People dont often get a chance to fly the perk stuff in the MA, it would be nice to have them available in the CT if the setup allows for them.



If ya think of something share it, I think a lot of great ideas can come out of this community.  Splicing them together in the right combination will allow for an excellent arena.
的t's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane

Offline soda72

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5201
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2005, 07:30:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
One ability that isn't present, but that would be useful, would be tha ability to allow aircraft in, but deny them some ordnance packages.  If the Spit XIV is denied its bombs and rockets and the Tempest is denied its bombs it would encourge the use of those high end fighters in the air-to-air roll rather than a universal roll.

That would be a change for HTC to impliment, if they thought it was worth it.


I think this would be a good idea as well...

I don't know if HTC will ever have time to do something like that though...

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2005, 11:23:27 PM »
I don't have any real suggestions to this one, but I can answer to Guppy.

 Like Guppy said, the problem with the CT is; 1) nobody has a clear idea in what the CT should be, and also, even if someone has bold intentions and clear ideas, 2) they don't have any direct control or authority over the CT to see it through.


 I was around when the CT was first created.

 At first, a lot of people like me considered that the CT could provide a material alternative to what the MA was. This group of people envisioned the CT as a "Historical" arena. One with more cooperation, lot of structuring, people organized into flights, regular missions, and etc.. You could say that it might have been something like the predecessor to the official ToD idea HTC has been promoting.

 However, other people saw the CT as a Axis vs Allies arena. It would be different from the MA in that it was emphasized clearly on A2A fighting, with a lot of less field captures.

 The third group of people, saw the CT as a MA with smaller numbers and limited plane sets. Essentially the same gameplay as the MA in the "anything goes" line of thought.


 Over the years, all of those three various views have been tested out in variations. There was a lot of experimentations. In the earlier days, the CT CMs have tried implementing 'general objectives' for certain terrains, to promote certain historical tendencies to be recreated in the setup. They've tried locking down fields so it can't be captured. They've tried the all-out MA style of play, too.

 All of them had good points and bad points, but one thing was certain; the AH system was fundamentally limited, and without a certain amount of avid and voluntary participation from the players, the gameplay cannot be something different from the MA.

 .............
 
 I'm not a mechanist, who thinks a certain material environment will automatically create certain tendencies. But I also detest metaphysics, laying blame to the individual.

 The metaphysical thought is not uncommon even in the MA. People blame the individual for creating hordes or loving superplanes or doing cowardly stuff. They say that the individual must become a better pilot and start seeing and doing stuff which they usually would not do, and then, one day, the MA will be all better. That's basically the same logic as saying that humanity can be saved when everybody on the planet suddenly starts acting like a saint. Yeah, right, let's hope 6 billion people will one day all become good people, maybe another million years of evolution would make that possible.

 I'm a materialist. I view the environment as being the key determining factor for people's behaviors. The individual mindset is not unimportant, but when it comes to making decisions, more often than not, people will prefer what is currently best for them under certain conditions.

 .............




 That's what's happened to the CT. AH, is at heart, a very simple game, at least in terms of structuring. The main download offers only a certain module of compatibility between the players, and that's it. It offers a certain type of strategically rigged terrain, and whatever the gamers do in it is up to them.

 However, the players actions are free only upto what is possible in the game. We have a "kill-town, capture field" system in place. We also have a very simple mission creating system in place. However, we don't have any other kind of supplementary systems to refine the gameplay to our needs.



 So, when the CT was envisioned as a real historic alternative for the players, the immediate problem was that you can't have any real historic fights in the CT. For one thing, the numbers were too limited. The CT regulars hoped that if the CT became fun enough, numbers would steadily rise, which never happened. (at one time, I've seen as many as 60~70 people, but that was about it)

 So, in order to create a CT that could recreate the intensity of a typical WW2 situation, all of the missing systems that were needed, would have to be filled in by the players with their voluntary sacrifice and participation.


 Example:


 If we wanted to a great WW2 style "8th AF vs the Luftwaffe" engagement, we would need people to man buffs, organized escort activities, organized interceptor activity, and basic synchronization between those two hostile sides, so people don't waste time trying to find another for hours.

 We're missing the system to place AI buff action, we don't have any host-triggered squad creation, nor any kind of strategic calculation system. Since all of these are missing, the players have to sacrifice themselves and organize it on a voluntary basis. Some people have to fly buffs, some 'leader' type of individual must organize the escort fighters, and another 'leader' would have to organize the interceptor fighters.  

 The problem is, this has to be done everyday. It's like the Special Events or Tour of Duty programs where people would voluntarily organize stuff to have a great time - but it's gotta be done everyday in the CT. The CT is a regular arena, not like the SEA or (player-organized)ToD which happens only once a week or month.

 
 Naturally, not even the CT staffers, which is also a voluntary position, can deal with that kind of workload. All of that workload, should be handled by the game system itself, but its not. Woops, there goes the first idea on what the CT should be. People cannot go further than how the system is created. At least, not over a certain duration.

 Nor do the CT staffers have any kind of real authority over the players to enforce a change. They are after all, in the same ranks as us. Some changes, or ideas, need to be forcibly implemented and enforced, until it becomes the norm, and over time people finally realize that it makes sense, and find the fun in it.

 However, CT staff doesn't have that power. They can't make sure of anything, they can't promise anything, and they cannot restrict anything. The only thing they can do, is meddle with the perimeters of the Arena Settings. Anything outside that, any 'gameplay decision', is out of their authority.


 So, now the CT faces two problems.

 The first one is that the main system of AH is so limited, that it cannot support any kind of real structuring or organizing to recreate the historical intensity. Everything must be done by the voluntary player, which cannot become a regular thing unless the voluntary player gets a job at HTC and makes it his work to organize other players.

 The second one is that the CT staff are lame-ducks. (Sorry guys, but this wasn't a personal insult) The only authority they have is map/setup selection and arena settings. They can't enforce any kind of different gameplay at all.

 
 Thus, with the above two conditions at work, it is only natural that the CT becomes a mini MA. That's how the game is made.

 With the current game system in place, no matter what you do, if you throw in many people inside the arena, they will start playing as if the were in the MA. That's a fact. It's not about the individual, but it's about how the system is structured.

 The terrain system is made like this. It starts out with certain setups.

 And then people come in. They fly for a while, and they think its ok.. but they quickly want more planes in it. They want field captures. They want dar back. They want all of the gameplay possible in the MA.

They want all of that, not because they are dweebs or are  selfish, but because nothing else is available. They might want real squad action, or huge formations of buffs. Or maybe a great big tank battle through the plains of Kursk, or a death duel in the city of Stalingrad. They might like that - if the CT can ever show them that. But the CT can't. Nobody has that kind of time, authority, or manpower to organize a great historic fight in the CT.

 So, people fly for a while in the CT, but they don't have anything really different from the MA. So if the CT doesn't give them at least as much action the MA can give them, then people ignore the CT.


 ...............

 It's a humongous LOSE-LOSE scenario.


1. If the CT staff do not give the players the MA type of gameplay, then there isn't anything else they can give. It takes a lot of time and voluntary will to make the fights in the CT great historic fun, and the players certainly don't care about that, nor do the CT staff have that much free time/authority in their hands. The AH system is too limited to make a CT a really different place. So, people start to get bored of the quiet, stagnant gameplay of the CT and stop comming.


2. However, if the CT staff allows all of that in the CT, then the CT is now nothing more than a mini-MA with limited planes. Why would anyone come to the CT when they can go to the MA and play the exact same thing in a larger scale?



 Add to that fact that the recent upgrade to AH2 got rid of many of the excellent terrains we used to have, and you have your answer in why the CT is failing. In my case, I am pretty much disappointed in the CT because I can't really feel any of the historic aura the CT might have offered. The only thing that kept me coming here was the different views. I simply loved Tunisia. I loved Battle of Britain, too.

 Woops, all gone. AH2. No maps yet.


 ...............

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2005, 11:24:19 PM »
So the question is, now that the  ToD is in development.. what should the CT become when ToD comes online?

 As for me, I think some of the systems in the ToD should be also made available in the CT, so it becomes a lighter, minored-down version of the ToD where players get some idea or practice for ToD, in a much more lenient environment. If the ToD is everything HT says, it's gonna be a tightly packed, hard structured scenario game where people fly in squad organizations, submit to the flight leaders, abide by times and schedules, get evaluated, and then get promoted/demoted.

 The CT, should be a freer environment where much of it remains the same as it was, except a few key systems in the ToD would be made available to the CT - like, the ability to place AI formations of buffs, create squad-based flight schedules, and etc.

 For example, If the CT is playing the BoB terrain, AI buffs of Ju88s will be placed and hit English locations regularly.

 Normally, people would up freely and fight around the Dover-Calais like they do currently. But every once in a while, maybe an hour, the system will announce AI Ju88s are gonna make their way to English locations. Then the LW people, if they want, can rtb, join the system-created squads, and wait. Only the people who joined the system-created squad will be able to take off from a certain location. The players will get off from the same field at the same time, will be directed by the system to go to X spot and join the buffs, and then fly towards England to escort.

 Much simularly, the RAF people will rtb, join the system-created squad, and then launch when the system lets them. They will be directed to where the LW buffs and escorts are.


 Both will meet, fight, and then the results of the flight will be announced which side met their objectives, the mission is over, and the people can resume their furballing at Dover-Calais.

 

 It's either this, or the CT closes.

Offline TheBug

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5652
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2005, 05:00:31 PM »
Wow, that was a tough post to get through my substance abused brain.

Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa


 So, in order to create a CT that could recreate the intensity of a typical WW2 situation, all of the missing systems that were needed, would have to be filled in by the players with their voluntary sacrifice and participation.


  In my case, I am pretty much disappointed in the CT because I can't really feel any of the historic aura the CT might have offered.

 ...............


I believe voluntary sacrifice and participation are the great hurdle to overcome.  As you pointed out the chance of "historic aura" is possible in the CT, and no matter what programming skills they have to enhance gameplay there will never be a button to push for player participation.

I don't think the CT needs to be repaired, or patched up, or cover every possible diverse whim to keep people from leaving.  I think it needs to be rebuilt on a foundation of historic gameplay and it is an opportune time to do it.  It may take time, but the player base that grows from that, and as it seems now there is a large chunk already interested in a greater lean towards a historical arena,  will be a player base that cares, that will be willing to participate.

Although I wouldn't be so quick to call it all a lose-lose situation, but with my past experience with the CT and change I do have to admit it is a rather daunting task.  But not impossible, just need some people to step up and apply the energy, get on the CT development group, keep posts going in this forum, etc..

Just within the last week I've noticed a much greater flow of positive energy in the posts, so it's hard to argue with the results of people applying themselves.  And I am certain with the staff we have in place no good ideas will be overlooked or cast off without any consideration.
的t's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9418
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2005, 04:00:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
It's either this, or the CT closes.

Not so sure that the outlook is so grim, although I like your idea of having AI formations periodically wandering around the map.

Seems to me that the CT never will appeal to more than a relatively small subset of the AH crowd.  There are just too many people who have a favorite plane that they want to fly, or who simply don't want to fly what's available in the CT on any particular evening.  Loyalty to squads enhances this, because unless everyone in the squad agrees to come to the CT, everyone will probably stay in the MA.  So we're always going to have fewer people than the MA has.

Question is, what factors will increase the numbers that we can get.  I agree with Kweassa's analysis that the CT will appeal to people who want an Axis v. Allied arena for historical satisfaction, or to people who want a chance for a rolling plane set so that they can utilize the pre-1945 plane set, or to people who want increased realism.  I also think that it draws - or should draw - people who are more interested in air-to-air combat than they are in winning the war (although many of these won't come here because they can't fly their favorite planes).  Really isn't any reason why we can't do all of these things here.

One particular comment regarding increased realism.  For a very long time, the chief reason given by posters on this BBS for not flying in the CT was that the icon ranges were too short.  I no longer buy that particular excuse.  We've had long icon ranges, off and on, for quite a large portion of this year, it's been widely announced, and the numbers didn't increase.  I'm therefore in favor of increasing the realism settings to bring in the ones that would appeal to.

- oldman the rambler

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2005, 05:24:04 AM »
The largest problem IMO, Oldman, is that CT has to find something to justify its existence when ToD comes out. We need an answer to the question we've been asking for so long;

 Just what is the CT supposed to be?

 Is it;


1) an arena to recreate WW2 events/timeline?

2) a semi-historic, Axis vs Allied free-flight/fight arena?

3) a mini-MA with less numbers and limited plane sets

 
 If the CT is 1), than its existence overlaps the ToD.

 If the CT is 3), then there's no reason why the CT should exist in the first place

 The problem is 2).

 "Semi-historic" - obviously, since the CT will continue to use a certain WW2 timeline for the planesets.But, if it's gonna be semi-historic, how's it gonna be different from the ToD and the MA?

 That's why I've been thinking that implementing some of the ToD game system into the CT would be a good idea. Not a real serious "role-playing" arena as the ToD, but not an all-out, do-anything-you-want, type of game such as the MA is.

Offline TexMurphy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1488
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2005, 11:02:05 AM »
You know maybe a semi realistic full set Axis vs Allies arena would work better.

The day we get ToD CT as a "historical set AH" will not be needed. ToD will be the limmited set historical game play.

I dont know about the rest of the player base but at least for me when I did my first trails of AH (2002 and 2003) reason I didnt sign up was that I really didnt like the "all nations have it all setup". Reason I kept trying it out was because it is a great game, finally I managed to get over the setup on my 3rd trial (fall of 2004).

If MA would have been a Axis vs Allies arean I would have signed up right away. It would have been historical enough.

I think the problem with CT and the potential problem of ToD is that they are too historical for the avg Joe player.

As said before CT, in the eyes of the avg player, takes away (planes) more then they get back from the loss (history).

Maybe if we had historical maps like BoB and finrus but with full plane set and axis vs allies we would get more players into the CT.

I personally really think we would.

Tex

Offline TheBug

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5652
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2005, 11:18:42 AM »
I think a semi-realistic Axis vs Allies arena is a possiblity, I personally prefer a more historic arena, but I do agree that it can be hard getting the numbers in there.

Maybe something along the lines of Warbirds historical arena, where there is a rolling plane set.  Start out with a different map each rotation,  all Axis 1940 planes vs all Allied 1940 planes, then slowly add planes to each respective side as they became available historically, until we reach the full planeset.  Run this over a month maybe??

One thing about this though, some of the historical maps might not be suited for this, where some of the MA map styles would be.

I honestly prefer the historical planeset correct to the map I'm flying, but if the arena TexMurphy mentioned draws in more numbers.   I know I would be that arena in a heartbeat over  going into the MA.
的t's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9418
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2005, 11:38:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy
The day we get ToD CT as a "historical set AH" will not be needed. ToD will be the limmited set historical game play.

I'm betting this won't be so.  ToD, as near as I can tell, will require a longer time commitment per sitting, as it were.  If you just want to log on for fifteen minutes or half an hour, I doubt that ToD will serve your needs.

But the CT will!

- oldman