Author Topic: Thinking out loud...a CT question  (Read 1529 times)

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« on: April 11, 2005, 03:24:12 PM »
Just thinking out loud but thought maybe the CT gurus could explain why it couldn’t work etc.  I’m sure you gents have already thought of this stuff anyway but humor me if you can  :)

It seems to me that the CT wants to be something different from the MA, and uses the notion of historic plane sets as it’s selling point.  Other then that, it’s really just a miniature MA with the same problems of land grab, porking for no good reason etc.

I also understand that some guys like to dogfight and some like to play ground attack/bomber pilot.

It seems to me there should be a way to please both types of pilots without sacrificing the fun for either.

So here’s my thought.  Feel free to tell me why it won’t work.  And please at least read it through before reacting to a sentence that might go against something you like.  I’m trying to meet in the middle somewhere with this.

-Take land grab completely out of the CT.  You are trying to in essence create a snapshot of a time period where certain aircraft were fighting each other.  Outside of the Blitzkreig and the ground war in the ETO from late 44 on, they weren’t rolling up airfields at a lightning quick pace.  Look at it as a week’s time or even a couple days.  Nobody was capturing things that fast.

-Take the points out of the CT.  The sooner guys quit worrying about their perks or points the better.  If you are a great Jabo pilot, then hitting the target accurately should be satisfaction enough.  Same for the dogfighter.  Protecting the buffs and shooting down the other guy should be enough.  The incentive to milk run goes right out the window then

-Create other targets for the buffers besides airfields.  Radar stations, vehicle bases, strat targets of some kind where they can practice their craft within the framework of the historical setting.

With that comes a question too.  Is there a way to use shipping as targets within the current AH2 world?  There are a bunch of historical set ups where having capital ships or just smaller ships as targets would fit perfectly.

Some examples that came to mind:

-The raids to Norway by the RAF and later some 8th AF Mustangs.    What if there was a way to put the Tirpitz and all it’s flak in a fjord with the surrounding mountains?  Throw in shipping convoys as targets somehow and you’ve got Mustang IIIs and IVs along with  Mossies and Lancs vs the 109s and 190s based in Norway.  The dogfighters get their fight while trying to get the Mossies and Lancs to their targets.  Airfields aren’t the issue.  Yes you’d have to compress the map and the flight time, but that would be doable I would think.  As long as the targets regenerate, the buffers stay busy and I doubt you’d have trouble finding enough 109 and 190 drivers to oppose them

-Target Rabaul-Again, if there is a way to use ships as targets, you’ve got A20s and RAAF Bostons to hit the targets, RNZAF P40s and Corsairs, along with USAAF 38Gs, P40s and any Navy birds you want to include battling Zekes, Tonies and I suppose of you add a US Carrier group to attack, Ki67s, Kates and Vals.  Again the fight is somewhat compressed, and the airfields aren’t the targets outside of the US carrier.  Historically there was never any intent to capture Rabaul and it’s airfields, but they had some nasty fights there.

-Channel Dash 1942-Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau make their run down the English Channel with the LW doing their best to keep the RAF away.  Spits, Hurris, Tiffies, Bostons, Mossies vs the 109s and 190s etc.  PTs as E-boats could be in that one and if it’s a moving fleet down the Channel, there’d be more airfields to try and CAP while the attack pilots tried to get through the fighter umbrella to hit the ships.

-Midway-4 Japanese Carrier groups vs 3 US Carrier Groups and one Island base.  The TBFs, B26s and 17s from Midway could go round and round trying to sink 4 carrier groups along with the Dauntless’s from the US Carriers.  The Kates and Vals could do the same and the F4F pilots and Zeke drivers could go round and round.  Again, nothing captured and doubtful that either side would b without CVs at anytime so the fights would be ongoing.  The guys who like to drop bombs would be constantly busy.

The list goes on and on.  Bottom line is it seems like there ought to be a way to let the attack/bomber pilots and fighter drivers co-exist without hindering the fun of either group.

Oh well, killing time on a day off and thought I’d at least throw it out there to get shot down  :)

Dan/CorkyJr
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Redd

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1316
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2005, 03:34:59 PM »
yes
I come from a land downunder

storch

  • Guest
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2005, 03:55:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Redd
yes

ditto

Offline StarOfAfrica2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5162
      • http://www.vf-17.org
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2005, 03:59:57 PM »
Sir, we have come to ask you a few questions regarding your recent posts in the CT forum.  Just look into this red light here.  Thats right.  Now, lets discuss these "ideas" of yours...............



Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18219
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2005, 04:01:43 PM »
good thoughts Corky

I and others have already mentioned taking base capture out as well as killing score/ranking

with base capture removed, smaller maps with closer bases would be possible and better fit the small numbers found in CT
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline plank

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2005, 04:39:58 PM »
I think taking out base capture would be great. When TK runs his missions we often attack things like you suggested, radar and the like so it wouldn't harm thursday missions in the slightest, it would only benefit the CT as a whole.

And get some sun on your day off corky! :)

Offline Shane

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7648
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2005, 05:20:34 PM »
thinking... leads to...

pain.


stop that right now before you hurt yourself.
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline TheBug

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5652
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2005, 05:45:34 PM »
I think your ideas are spot on Guppy!  That is exactly how I envision the CT, although I would like to keep perk points to maintain rarity in the planeset.  Here's a setup I came up with a couple weeks ago, it is rough, but kinda follows the guidelines that you mentioned.  I also think a setup like this is better suited running over two weeks instead of one, with two mission nights per week.  With possibly adding a third at a Euro friendly time if there was a staffer and numbers to support it.

The objectives/results need fine tuning but ya get the idea.  Glad to see I'm not alone here. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd Tactical Airforce Spring/Summer '44

Situation:The 2nd Tactical Air Force (2nd TAF) was formed to support the Allied invasion of, and subsequent ground operations in, Western Europe. The campaign in North Africa had proved the value of highly mobile and responsive air forces acting in direct support of the ground troops. Prior to the operations in Sicily and Italy, the air elements supporting the 1st and 8th Armies were combined to form the 1st Tactical Air Force, popularly known as the Desert Air Force. In preparation for the invasion of Western Europe, the formation of a second tactical air force began in Britain in June 1943 drawing in existing squadrons from Fighter, Bomber, and Army Co-Operation Commands.

Initially, 2nd TAF comprised three groups. There were two close support groups, consisting of fighters, fighter bombers and reconnaissance aircraft to provide intimate support to the two armies that comprised the 21st Army Group, the British Commonwealth contribution to the invasion of western Europe. 83 and 84 Groups would operate with, respectively, the 2nd British and 1st Canadian Armies. The third group was intended for more general support and to fulfil this role 2 Groups, consisting of light and medium bombers, was transferred from Bomber Command. In order to provide the flexibility required to support highly mobile ground operations the maintenance components of each squadron were separated to form independent airfield operating units, the role of which was to establish forward landing grounds from which any squadron could operate. In early 1944 85 group - a fourth - was added to 2nd TAF to provide protection for Allied base areas both in southern England, and in Europe once the invasion began.

2nd TAF, alongside its American equivalent the United States 9th Air Force, carried out its intended role throughout the operations in western Europe during 1944 and early 1945. The weight of aerial firepower that the Allied armies had at their disposal proved telling in their victory over the Germans.


Planeset:


2nd Tactical Airforce OOB

Spitfire Mk IX
Typhoon Ib
Mustang III
Boston III
Mosquito Mk VI
Lancaster III

Seafire IIc (perked 5 points)
Spitfire Mk XIV (perked 25 points)
Tempest V (perked 35 points)

Luftwaffe OOB

Bf 109G-6
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8
Ju 88A-4
Ju 87D-3

Bf 110G-2(perked 15 points)

Standard vehicles for the time period will be available, with Tiger perked 25 points.

Setup:

ALL PERKS WILL BE RESET!

There will be NO Dot-DAR only Bar-DAR.

Field Capture will be OFF!!, yes I said OFF.

Fields will be captured but this will be achieved in non-convential ways, through CT administrated
"Opertaional" nights.  

First night will be Friday at 9pm-12pm EST, it will cover the air ops leading up to the invasion.  The Allies will
be given a set of objectives to complete within the three hours. All bases in England will be Allied all on the
Continent will be Luftwaffe.  The Luftwaffe objectives for the second Operational night will hinge on the Allies
success or failure.

Second night will be Sunday night 8-11pm EDT, this will be invasion night!  The Vehicle bases 100-103 will
become Allied, these are the invasion beaches.  Allied vehicles only will become available here.  It will be
up to the Luftwaffe/Wehrmacht to slow the landing of supplies as much as possible.(The invasion can not be stopped).  
The base availabilty in the next Operational night for the Allies will hinge on the Luftwaffe's success or failure.

Third night will be Tuesday night 9pm-12pm EDT, it will cover the Breakout phases(Operation Cobra).  The Allies will
recieve single-engine aircraft at "forward bases".  If the Luftwaffe achieves no objectives on the second night, the
Allies will control V98 through V103 and A60 as FBs.  One Objective V98-v103 will be Allied, two V99-V103 and finally if all four were achieved only v100-103 will be Allied FBs.  For this frame the Allies will be charged with "capturing" Cherbourg(Also Caen if not taken with invasion).  If they fail in capturing both the setup will remain as is for the rest of the week.

If the Allies succeed we move to the last night, Thursday night 9pm-12pm EDT.  This will cover the Falaise gap.  Allies will control all the bases they have captured so far.  The German bases A41,42,76,77 and 78 will be considered the Falaise Gap and the Allies will be charged with closing all these bases, as they close them they capture them automatically.  Only German vehicles will be allowed to spawn from these bases.  Whatever the Allies capture by 11pm will stay Allied for the remainder of the week.
“It's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2005, 06:07:35 PM »
The problem I see with perks is it gives people a reason to game the game so to speak.    Take away the points and the reason for some guy to sit and vulch for those points, is taken away.

Would it not make more sense to limit the bases something like a Tempest could come up from?  The penalty is the flight time or limit the amount of Tempest's available.

When 2 TAF was rolling for real the air to air guys were the Spit XIVs and the Tempests.  At the same time they were having to deal with the Doras and the 262 threat which balanced it out.

The LFIX/XVI guys were really at that point doing the ground attack bit with the ability to defend themselves.

Ring the 262 fields with heavy ack and let folks attempt to "Rat Catch" with the same risks the real guys had with the ack traps.  Within the limits of AH2 you can still set up the same scenario the real guys had to deal with.

If we're really talking about a more historically minded crew in the CT then folks aren't neccesarily going to grab the best ride everytime, instead taking that which best fits the time.

I suppose another idea would be to have some sort of CT website that folks can go to that takes the history a bit more in depth for each set up so those who don't know what was going on at the time in history, can get a better idea. It might let you build up an archive of info, photos etc that help folks learn that way too.  

Dan/CorkyJr

Thanks btw for the responses. Glad I wasn't completely off base
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

storch

  • Guest
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2005, 06:16:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
The problem I see with perks is it gives people a reason to game the game so to speak.    Take away the points and the reason for some guy to sit and vulch for those points, is taken away.

Would it not make more sense to limit the bases something like a Tempest could come up from?  The penalty is the flight time or limit the amount of Tempest's available.

When 2 TAF was rolling for real the air to air guys were the Spit XIVs and the Tempests.  At the same time they were having to deal with the Doras and the 262 threat which balanced it out.

The LFIX/XVI guys were really at that point doing the ground attack bit with the ability to defend themselves.

Ring the 262 fields with heavy ack and let folks attempt to "Rat Catch" with the same risks the real guys had with the ack traps.  Within the limits of AH2 you can still set up the same scenario the real guys had to deal with.

If we're really talking about a more historically minded crew in the CT then folks aren't neccesarily going to grab the best ride everytime, instead taking that which best fits the time.

I suppose another idea would be to have some sort of CT website that folks can go to that takes the history a bit more in depth for each set up so those who don't know what was going on at the time in history, can get a better idea. It might let you build up an archive of info, photos etc that help folks learn that way too.  

Dan/CorkyJr

Thanks btw for the responses. Glad I wasn't completely off base

All of these ideas have merit and are worthy of implementation.
thank you for your imput and the expertise you bring to the table

Offline TheBug

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5652
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2005, 06:22:20 PM »
I hear ya, but I'm not so sure I'd be looking to take vulching away.  I can't find fault with the vulchers with a setup like this,  control the airspace over your airfields would be my take on it.

So that would not be enough for me to restrict planes to rear bases.  I think by resetting perks and keeping them high enough that would keep the plane rarity up and not punish those that earn them.


The CT website is another great idea, but it is also not a new one.  I think the time and energy needed for it is the daunting part at the moment.

These of course are just my opinions and not meant to put down any of yours.  In fact I'm liking the way you are thinking and think people with similiar mindsets are what is needed to get the CT off the ground again.
“It's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2005, 06:30:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheBug
I hear ya, but I'm not so sure I'd be looking to take vulching away.  I can't find fault with the vulchers with a setup like this,  control the airspace over your airfields would be my take on it.

So that would not be enough for me to restrict planes to rear bases.  I think by resetting perks and keeping them high enough that would keep the plane rarity up and not punish those that earn them.


The CT website is another great idea, but it is also not a new one.  I think the time and energy needed for it is the daunting part at the moment.

These of course are just my opinions and not meant to put down any of yours.  In fact I'm liking the way you are thinking and think people with similiar mindsets are what is needed to get the CT off the ground again.



I wouldn't be looking to take vulching away either, but I'd hope it would be framed in the history in some way.

If I'm upping from a further back field in my Tempest, you can bet I've got drop tanks on and I know which field the 262s are at so that I might set myself up to catch them coming or going...'Rat catching".  The risk I take is the flak traps and the potential for those D9s or 109G10s protecting the field.  At the same time the threat of my Tempest is protecting those attack drivers who might be hitting things in closer as the 262 and D9 pilots have to deal with my Tempest first.

I get one challenge while the attack guys get another, which may be catching 109s or 190s trying to up from a closer field, or knocking out the radar that helps those 262s know where to go.

Dan/CorkyJr
Who is enjoying the give and take.  I also know that you gents have been far down this road before so I appreciate the willingness to keep talking.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline TheBug

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5652
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2005, 06:37:52 PM »
Well in essence the Tempests would most likely end up at the rear bases, since they would not move to the Forward Bases on the continent.  Since my setup hinges around the 2nd TAF involvement leading up to and shortly after the Invasion of Normandy there would be no Dora's or 262's.  And with the perk points set for the Tempests they would surely be a rare bird.(The exact perk point value may need tweaking since I haven't much experience, but I'm willing to try and learn)

I also enjoy the give and take, for although we have been walking long on this road we haven't gotten far.:)
“It's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane

Offline StarOfAfrica2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5162
      • http://www.vf-17.org
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2005, 09:28:39 PM »
Although I understand your reasoning behind keeping the (adjusted) perk system in place, I really dont think there's enough there to merit keeping them over doing away with them.  You either need to leave them without resetting them, or disable them completely (my suggestion).  Some good arguments have been put up on both sides, but let me just add one more tidbit to think over.

If you are going to bother to put the plane in service, that means there is a role for it.  However limited that role might be.  By resetting Perks at the start of every new map, you only ensure that at least at first, the planes are as good as disabled.  No one will have any perks to use on them.  Also, alot of folks (myself included) only get short periods of time during the week to play, so we are all penalized for not having time to log in and fly to earn the perks.  Add into that people who might stop into the CT from the MA, or people who are new to the game, they dont have perks either.  So only the pilots who spend all their time in the CT arena get to fly the perked planes.  The rest of us are left out.  Now lets say you get a situation where the Tempest would really be useful.  But alas!  None of the allied pilots online have any perk points!!  So much for having the Tempest enabled.  Its just a tease.

Does this really sound like a good way to get people interested in playing in the CT?  They'll get used to the idea of no perks, because THE PLANES THAT ARE NORMALLY PERKED WILL BE OPEN TO EVERYONE.  Thats is the only use for perks, the only reason they are a part of this game.  Thats all they were ever INTENDED to be.  Scores are there to give the "gaming" community some measuring stick to judge their performance by.  I think the CT can strive to be a little stricter than that.  If we can pare down the planeset, we can pare down the scoring system.  No one needs another noodle-measurer to know who's good or not, especially when as long as there's a way to milk the system, someone will do it.  Level the playing field by removing scores and perk points, and the only measure of who's good or not is in reputation and skill.  Word of mouth.  The good old "I fought him and he killed me 5 times out of 6."  Isnt that enough?  

Thanks.

P.S.:  I hope I didnt offend anyone.  I tend to be blunt, and sometimes I get a little argumentative when I dont mean to be.

Offline aztec

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1800
Thinking out loud...a CT question
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2005, 07:35:51 AM »
Sounds good Guppy and I'm pleased to see that so far folks with very different personalities, flying styles etc. seem to agree. One week a month under your parameters would be an interesting experiment. !