Author Topic: Top Ten Tanks  (Read 1294 times)

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2005, 11:59:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
The easy-8 was the best Sherman made, easilly chosen over a 1942 T34, but what about a 1945 version (uparmored and with the 85mm)? At least it would require more info like terrain conditions to make a clear choice.


I would take it over any T34.

And any tanker in WW2 would take a Panther over any sherman.
the best tank in history in comparison to its contemporarys is the Panther. Not on the list. lol

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2005, 12:12:15 AM »
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the best tank in history in comparison to its contemporarys is the Panther. Not on the list. lol


I agree with that. No idea why it didnt make the top 10 list at all.
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Offline Slurpee

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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2005, 12:23:07 AM »
Elfie, that wouldnt suprise me at all. From how quick they said it knockd out 3 shermans, seems like any expierenced Tiger crew would have made it a rough day for plenty of Sherman crews.

Really amazing Tank.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2005, 12:23:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
I never really understood why the T-34 is generally listed as the all time best tank.


Because all the things you wanted in a tank, it had. It was a simple design and easy to manufacture. It was fast. It was low to the ground and had a wide base. It had a diesel engine that reduced the chance of fire. It had firepower. It was durable, less prone to break down. It had sloped armor. It was the perfect tank design.

I think sometimes the T-34 is overlooked as a deciding factor in ww2
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2005, 12:46:23 AM »
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
am I reading this correctly?  The sherman had 2 engines?


No, but some Shermans had 6 engines....

Offline bunch

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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2005, 12:46:58 AM »

Offline Lizard3

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« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2005, 01:11:11 AM »
I read a book a while back that explained to a T what a worthless POS the Sherman was. Book was written by a tank recovery officer with the 3rdAD(I think). Books called "Death Traps: Survival of an American Armored Division in World War II".

He also talks about the IIRC M26 Pershing and how things changed when they finally got it. One that had an experimental IIRC 90mm gun. Maybe 120mm. I loaned the book out 8 months or so ago and havn't gotten it back yet...

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2005, 01:21:38 AM »
I would say the T54/55 series were the best tank design in history. Of course better more modern designs came later but taken in one single time, this tank was IMO the best design.

To get all that armor, firepower and capability in a tank scarecly heavier than a T34 was a design miracle.

For it's time period of the late 1940s it was the best tank and the fasct thsat so many are still around speaks very well of it.  To give you some perspective how long living the T54/55 series was, its basic chassis design used on the T44 which saw limited combat late in WW2 so dont mind the drubbings it recieved from 35 year newer designs like M1 Abrams in the gulf.

Its 100mm gun was more powerful than Panther's 75mm more powerful than Tiger I 88mm more than the US 90mm or the british 17lbr, its Armor was nearly that of Kingtiger all at T34 weight and with even simpler construction and a much better suspension. T54/55 is simply amazing.

Compare it to the US tanks of the late 40s period like M26 Pershing and its one hell of a weapon. Compare its numbers in production and its total fighting capability circa 1955/60 and you will quickly see why the usa europe defense strategy was to use nukes.

After T54/55 I think the most underrated tank is the British centurion.  Also like t44/54/55, a late ww2 design the centurion had enormous growth potential in armor and firepower. Initially armed with the 17lbr, later upgraded to the 20lbr (a gun with much better penetration than Kingtigers 88/L71) and finally to the famed L7 105mm that went on to arm 2 generations of Nato/US tanks including the initial M1 Abrams. Not bad for a 1945 tank that gets so little press. Its armor was also upgraded through its very long service life.

The T34 is somewhat of a mixed bag, a truth belayed by the fact that soviet tank designers tried on several occasions to design a T34 replacement, even in the dark days of 41/42 when every tank was needed. Its suspension was primitive, it was nutoriously hard/finnicky to drive and shift gears, it had a terrible turret layout, terrible ammo layout, poor visibilty, poor command setup etc etc etc. Whjat made it's reputation was simply the glaring weakness of 1941 era german tank mounted guns. If the 1941 panzers mounted longer 75mm or even the high velocity 50mm/L60 as hitler had wanted  then we would have heard little of the T34. But with Panzer 3 doing only with a 37mm or short 50mm and panzer 4 only with a 75mm close support howitzer the T34 made its name in history and saved the ussr.

Sherman gets a very bad rap. In summer 1942 it was one of the worlds best tanks. Its armor and firepower were clearly superior to Panzer IVF1 and its overall combat capability was better than contemporary T34. Where Sherman failed was in the us armys tank fighting doctorine where the best guns and ammo went to dedicated tank destyroyer units. So while the Pz IV was upgunned to high velocity 75m guns in 1942 the sherman larely went on with its old low velocity 75mm gun - dervied from a ww1 french field artierly piece of all things. Even when shermans got 76mm guns in 1944 the best AP ammo went to the Tank destroyer units and even worse the 76mm shermans were rather rare. IMO it was a crime that US Shermans never got upgraded to the 17lbr british gun, this would have given the US soldier Panther level firepower and would have saved many many US lives in 1944. Shermans other wekness was its very tall shiloutte because the early models were powered by an aircraft radial engine.  Finally one Sherman weakness that gets overblown (sic) is its tendancy to catch fire because it was gasoline powered. Well this was true and it was a big problem, however what irks me is the fact that all significant german tanks were also gasoline powered and burned very quickly too. For example Panther side armor is scarely beter than shermans when being shot at by 1944 guns so panthers burned very easily too, but you almost never hear that as a weakness.

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2005, 05:25:12 AM »
I would think the T55 would be higher on the list and that the T72 would be on it.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2005, 05:30:56 AM »
One disadvantage Soviet tanks (T-55 > 72) had was that of gun depression. This left too much hull exposed in the 'hull down' position, whereas Western tanks would only have the turret showing. Another disadvantage was the cramped turret interior.

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Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2005, 09:57:14 AM »
OTOH, Soviet tanks are waay-waay less tall than Western tanks, making them more harder to be hit. The ballistic shape of their turrets is also very good  (an advantage up to when Cobham was introduced on Western tanks). And one has to keep in mind the Western tanks never met Soviet armor in Soviet hands... luckily for the world. Just the ones used by poorly trained 3rd world crews.

Back on topic, these 'Top10 lists' are something extremely silly. Hardly any through rational behind them at all.

And putting the T-34 on the 1st place is hardly deserved. It was fairly advanced in it`s basics when appeared, but also had a huge number of flaws in it`s design, and generally greatly overrated.
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Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2005, 10:12:19 AM »
"Tommy Cooker"

"Ronson" (Lights first time!)

Wonder how this fantastic:rolleyes: weapon got those names?


Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2005, 10:17:44 AM »
Best tanks of all time?


Abrams

Leopard2

Challenger2

Just a Hunch!

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2005, 10:44:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
And one has to keep in mind the Western tanks never met Soviet armor in Soviet hands... luckily for the world. Just the ones used by poorly trained 3rd world crews.


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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2005, 10:45:16 AM »
Good write up Grun.
But really, if you take 1943 and look at all the tanks in the world and try to find a tank remotely in the leage of the panther you will not succeed.
2 war years (20 peace time years) later the T44 and Centurion came out which were indeed worthy challangers.
But your own well written story points out that the Centurion and T54 are contemporarys. The Panther stands alone. Its enemies knew it and its crews knew it.  It was as unreliable as the T44 was and the Centurion would have been if rushed in in 45 but as a battle tank it showed the world what was missing from the T34 and what the cost was to correct that lack.

Both the T55 and the Centrurion would have had thier hands full with thier contemporarly the Panther II. L71 gun and tiny turrent with one axis stabilization, optical range finder and IR night fighting capability.
So late 1945 would have the allies establishing rough parity with the Germans with excellent modern MBT type tanks on all sides. But in 1943 that parity was a pipe dream. The panther ruled all.