Author Topic: I wish Brit Gov would make up its mind on Crime?  (Read 439 times)

Offline bustr

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I wish Brit Gov would make up its mind on Crime?
« on: April 12, 2005, 04:21:53 PM »
Ok, you read 6 sources in England including the (Official Government figures on crime in England) and it all looks rosey. But then you come across something like this..........

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Police Issue Warning as Teenagers Take to Guns

 
Jason Bennetto, Independent (London), Apr. 12


Teenagers as young as 16 are increasingly using guns, often to resolve “trivial” disputes, a Scotland Yard review has discovered.

Preliminary police figures suggest the number of youths aged 16 to 19 carrying firearms has almost doubled in the past five years.

One of the Metropolitan Police’s senior firearms officers has warned that unless something is done to tackle the new breed of teenager gunmen then there could be a fresh surge in shootings in the capital.

The trend towards younger gunmen was discovered by officers from Operation Trident, the police operation that investigates so-called “black on black” shootings, most of which involve gang feuds and disputes over drugs. The trend, however, is also repeated in other communities in the capital, the police say. Teenagers are carrying weapons, often imitation firearms, for intimidation and protection.

Detective Superintendent John Coles, in charge of tackling gun crime, said: “It is our fear that there may be a burst of gun crime on the streets of London that we may not be able to get a hold of for five years. It is a fear I and my colleagues all have.”

He warned: “We are living in an increasingly violent society. We’ve had instances of arguments over video games or a spilt drink leading to a shooting. Gang disputes 20 years ago would be settled with fists. Ten years ago it was all knives. Now they all have guns and it ends in a shooting.”

Concern is growing that the drift towards younger gunmen in London will be repeated around the country. Firearms offences in Britain are at a record high with 10,590 in the year to June 2004. Although the number of people shot dead has dropped from 82 to 70 in the same period, a further 430 incidents involved serious injuries.

In London the number of murders investigated by Trident has risen from 11 in the nine months to April 2004 to 16 the following year. The number of attempted murders has dropped from 38 to 19 in the same period, while the overall number of shootings has gone down from 162 to 146.

The issue of teenage gunmen was highlighted with the release at the weekend of a new film, Bullet Boy, which follows the exploits of a 19-year-old Londoner caught up in the world of gangs and guns. Ashley Walters, from the rap collective So Solid Crew, plays a teenager called Ricky, just released from juvenile detention, who goes back to live with his mother and 12-year-old brother in the area of Hackney nick-named “Murder Mile” for the number of homicides.

Walters admits to using his own experience of firearms—he was jailed for gun possession—in portraying his character. In the film, Ricky becomes embroiled in an escalating cycle of violence that starts with something as trivial as a clipped wing mirror.

A police spokeswoman said: “Over recent months Trident have identified an emerging trend in which a small number of teenagers aged 16 to 19 have become engaged in gun crime.

“We have seen a small number of shootings for relatively trivial matters within this age group.”

Commander Cressida Dick, head of the Met’s specialist crime directorate, explained: “The age of people carrying guns is definitely coming down in all communities. We now need to focus more resources on targeting these young people and moving them away from criminality.”

She continued: “There is anecdotal evidence that more young people feel it is socially acceptable to carry a gun.

“Compared with five years ago there is clearly greater availability of lots of types of firearms so it’s not so difficult for a young person to carry a gun, [in order] to look good, feel big, and feel safe.”

Among the recent cases was a teenager who was jailed for 25 years in February for shooting and crippling a father of three in north London. David Gaynor, aged 19 at the time, was summoned by a member of a street gang to punish Douglas Mullings, a 32-year-old carpenter, who had stood up to them after a car was damaged.

Gaynor arrived hooded, with a sawn-off shotgun and, in front of a street full of witnesses including Mr Mullings’ children, shot him in the back of the head as he fled with his family. The gunman was driven away by a friend. When his home was searched, police found he had written a rap verse—“I will kill you in front of your family”—to mark his triumph.

Mr Mullings is paralysed, has the speech capacity of a five-year-old and will need 24-hour care for the rest of his life.

There have also been several high-profile young victims. This month, Charles Osei-Bonsu, 17, was shot as he left a community party in north London. He is thought to have been the victim of mistaken identity in a drive-by shooting. David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham and minister for Constitutional Affairs, helped to give the teenager first aid outside a community centre on the Broadwater Farm estate.

Teenagers on trial


Ben Dawe, 19, of Everton, Liverpool, is to appear in South Sefton magistrates’ court on 14 April, charged with stealing more than 500 bullets from an army base.


Zartash Khan, 19, appeared at Camberwell Green magistrates’ court on 27 December 2004 charged with the attempted murder of PC Liam Morrow, 22. He is charged with possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life and possession of a firearm with intent to commit an indictable offence. He is due to stand trial on 1 August 2005.


Ashley Walters was formerly known as MC Asher D from the garage band So Solid Crew. In 2002, Walters , then aged 19, was given an 18-month jail sentence for possession of a loaded converted air pistol.


David Gaynor was jailed for 25 years in February for shooting and crippling Douglas Mullings, a carpenter, after a row over a damaged car. Gaynor, who was 19 at the time of the incident, fired a shotgun into the back of his victim’s head on a street in London.


In July 2004, Scott Atkinson, 20, and a 17-year-old, both from east Manchester, admitted owning a sawn-off shotgun with intent to endanger life. They were detained for four years at Manchester Crown Court. The court was told Atkinson and the youth had fled from a car police had tried to stop in Ashton New Road in January 2004. The youth threatened the officer with one of the guns but was arrested. The sub-machine gun was later found to have 20 live cartridges. The court heard the teenager was moving the shotgun for other people whom he refused to name.


Ben Edgell was 18 when he repeatedly fired a gun in a busy shopping street in Stockton, Teesside, in December, 2003. He walked away from court after the judge sympathised with his traumatic upbringing.


Mark Harrington, a psychiatric patient, was 19 when he shot dead his best friend, Anthony Rigby, in January 2002. He was detained indefinitely in a mental unit after pleading guilty to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility.

(Posted on April 12, 2005)
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2005, 04:41:21 PM »
Quote
Ok, you read 6 sources in England including the (Official Government figures on crime in England) and it all looks rosey. But then you come across something like this.


It's quite simple. The press like a good story, the police like to talk up the threat to increase their budgets.

If you look at the actual figures:

fatal firearms injuries
2003 - 82
2004 - 70

serious firearms injuries
2003 - 430
2004 - 430 (all these figures, apart from those for fatal injuries, are rounded to the nearest ten, so there may have been a tiny rise or fall, but it's not statistically significant)

minor injuries
2003 - 1810
2004 - 2150*
* Slight injuries increased by 340 offences or 19 per cent. This rise is mainly due to imitation weapons.

(That's the exact wording from the official report. A slight injury can include shock, being hit with an imitation weapon, etc)

Weapons used in crimes:

Shotgun
2003 - 700
2004 - 690

rifle
2003 - 50
2004 - 60

handgun
2003 - 5480
2004 - 4910

imitation firearm
2003 - 1900
2004 - 2560

Yes, there is a large rise in the level of crime being committed with toy guns, but a drop in the level of crime being committed with real guns.

Quote
Firearms offences in Britain are at a record high with 10,590 in the year to June 2004


This is only when you include imitation firearms. Stripping those from the figures, and the level went down last year.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2005, 04:42:10 PM »
Guns have been outlawed in the UK, so this story cant be true.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2005, 04:46:13 PM »
Quote
Ashley Walters was formerly known as MC Asher D from the garage band So Solid Crew. In 2002, Walters , then aged 19, was given an 18-month jail sentence for possession of a loaded converted air pistol.





Nashwan, is a "loaded converted air pistol" something that will fire a conventional (primer, powder, bullet) round?

Secondly, would crimes involving a converted "imitation firearm" that had been modified to fire a conventional round be listed as a regular firearm crime or an "imitation firearm" crime?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 09:06:16 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline straffo

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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2005, 05:16:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Nashwan, is a "loaded converted air pistol" something that will fire a conventional (primer, powder, bullet) round?
 


It would be a good way to be in the darwin awards :)

Offline hawker238

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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2005, 05:39:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Guns have been outlawed in the UK, so this story cant be true.


But Grunherz!  You said there would be gun crime no matter what the laws said!

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2005, 05:56:24 PM »
Guns again!!!!?

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2005, 06:09:46 PM »
Quote
Nashwan, is a "loaded converted air pistol" something that will fire a conventional (primer, powder, bullet) round?


Yes. The problem is with a certain type of air pistol designed to fire "air cartridges". Basically a small refillable air cylinder shaped like a .38 cartridge, with a .22 pellet in the nose where the bullet would be.

They are easily convertable to .22 rimfire, by making special adapters.

Quote
Secondly, would crimes involving a converted "imitation firearm" that had been moddified to fire a conventional round be listed as a regular firearm crime or an "imitation firearm" crime?


Regular firearm. From the Home Office crime figures:

"Imitation handguns, which are converted to fire bullets like handguns, are counted as handguns."

The case of Ashley Walters highlights the real availability of guns in Britain.

So Solid Crew were Britain's version of a gangster rap group (although they were garage, not rap)

Two of their members were convicted in seperate cases of having handguns, in both cases they were air pistols/replicas converted to fire .22 rimfire. The second member, G Man, got 4 years.

A third member, Megaman, is on remand awaiting trial for murder, other members have been charged with various assaults on police officers, drug and firearms charges.

They were also pretty successfull, with a number of top hits.

So there was a successfull group, conected in the drug scene, and the best firearms they could come up with were a converted air pistol and a converted blank firing pistol (no idea what Megaman is accused of using, he hasn't been tried yet)

And such guns aren't cheap either. You had to buy the air gun first, at a cost of around £150, then pay for the conversion (another £150, according to the press (and I can't see it being much cheaper, as it involves some work, and carries a substantial prison term), and for your £300 (about $600) you have a 22 rimfire revolver of questionable safety) (The easily convertable air pistols/replicas have since been banned)

Police figures put the numbers of these converted guns at up to 70% of the total of all handguns recovered in the UK.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2005, 06:17:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
imitation firearm
2003 - 1900
2004 - 2560


Bullet Tooth Tony says, "Now, dicks have drive and clarity of vision, but they are not clever. They smell ***** and they want a piece of the action. And you thought you smelled some good old *****, and have brought your two small mincey studmuffingot balls along for a good old time. But you've got your parties mangled up. There's no ***** here, just a dose that'll make you wish you were born a woman. Like a salamander, you are having second thoughts. You are shrinking, and your two little balls are shrinking with ya. The fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your gun. (withdraws his gun) And the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine, should precipitate your balls into shrinking, along with your presence. Now... **** off."
sand

Offline Pei

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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2005, 07:01:31 PM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Guns have been outlawed in the UK, so this story cant be true.


Guns have never been outlawed in the UK.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2005, 09:10:42 PM »
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Originally posted by Nashwan
So there was a successfull group, conected in the drug scene, and the best firearms they could come up with were a converted air pistol and a converted blank firing pistol  


I'd give that a "maybe".

Obviously, smuggling drugs into the country is no real problem either in your country or mine.

One has to think that a few pistols added to the drug shipments wouldn't be much of a problem.

Maybe they had a converted air pistol and a converted blank firing pistol because that's what they chose to have.

Or are you saying that while it's easy to smuggle in loads of drugs, a pistol or 12 would just be impossible?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2005, 03:57:43 AM »
How heavy is a handgun and ammo?

Say 1 kg, for arguments sake.

What's the street price of 1 kg of cocaine, heroin, even cannabis?

Why have a mule bring a handgun through customs when they can bring something much more valuable, that doesn't attract any more (or even less, in the case of cannabis) of a prison term?

Guns are smuggled in, of course, but not in very large numbers. It's just not economically worthwhile to do so.

Most crime is about money. If the crime doesn't net enough money, an organised criminal isn't going to touch it, and to make smuggling guns worthwhile, the street price has to be so high there will be very few buyers.

Quote
Maybe they had a converted air pistol and a converted blank firing pistol because that's what they chose to have.


Doesn't say much for the available choices, I think.

Why would anyone choose a 22 rimfire revolver converted out of an air pistol if there was a nice, real, 9mm auto available? Both band members had the guns for protection (both were caught with them in the street), and 22 lr just isn't very good for self defence. It's not as if they wanted them for plinking.

(One other disadvantage of the converted air pistol is reload times. From what I've seen, you have to take the .38 adapters out of the cylinder, unscrew them, extract the used .22 cartridge, put a new 22 cartridge in, screw the .38 adapters back together, then put the back in the gun.)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 04:03:03 AM by Nashwan »

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2005, 04:04:09 AM »
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Why have a mule bring a handgun through customs when they can bring something much more valuable, that doesn't attract any more (or even less, in the case of cannabis) of a prison term?


Why? Simple, to protect your *merchandise* from being stolen by other drug dealers. Doesnt do you much good to bring in 50 kilos of cocaine (or insert whatever other drug you wish) if the dealer the next block over robs you at gunpoint. Far cheaper to bring in a few guns for yourself and your chums.

Even if your neighboring rivals dont have guns yet you can bring in some guns for your gang and rob your rivals before they can rob you. Or, just eliminate your rivals.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2005, 04:15:32 AM »
Quote
Most crime is about money. If the crime doesn't net enough money, an organised criminal isn't going to touch it, and to make smuggling guns worthwhile, the street price has to be so high there will be very few buyers.


While I agree that generally speaking crime is about money. I do not agree that smuggling guns is not worthwhile to criminals from a cash standpoint. If it wasnt profitable it would never be done and that clearly isnt the case here in the US. The UK will probably start to see more and more firearms smuggled in, unless you guys on the other side of The Pond can find a solution to the gang violence.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2005, 04:26:00 AM »
I believe there is very little arms smuggling into the US. Criminal's guns are sourced either directly from dealers, or from dealers via a third party (straw purchaser, stolen from legitimate owner, etc).