MesserSpit

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by agent 009
The MK 14 Spit had the bubble which like the Mustang D created turbulence problems. Required constant trimming in level flight.

I think actually very few of them got bubble canopy, most I have seen has the same as older Spitfires. AFAIK FR variants came with bubbles because of their role.

Mustang C could outdive D as it had razorback instead of bubble. D could not be dived safely past 505-525 mph. C could though. 190 could hit 580 safely. Don't know bout 109. Willi Batz once hit 590 mph, but  wings were bent, fuselage wrecked. Plane writeoff.

Interesting, I have comment on just that ! :


American pilot Robert C.Curtis remmembers :

"My flight chased 12 109s south of Vienna. They climbed and we followed, unable to close on them. At 38,000 feet I fired a long burst at one of them from at least a 1000 yards, and saw some strikes. It rolled over and dived and I followed but soon reached compressibility with severe buffeting of the tail and loss of elevator control. I slowed my plane and regained control, but the 109 got away.

On two other occasions ME 109s got away from me because the P 51d could not stay with them in a high-speed dive. At 525-550 mph the plane would start to porpoise uncontrollably and had to be slowed to regain control. The P 51 was redlined at 505 mph, meaning that this speed should not be exceeded. But when chasing 109s or 190s in a dive from 25-26,000 it often was exceeded, if you wanted to keep up with those enemy planes. The P 51b, and c, could stay with those planes in a dive. The P 51d had a thicker wing and a bubble canopy which changed the airflow and brought on compressibility at lower speeds"

[Angus]

So, the anecdotes are in harmony.
Razorback P51's had no trouble diving after the 109's or 190's, while the bubbles did. Note that the difference is rather marginal though, run for a few seconds with a 10 kph difference and there is not much ground gained. The key is acceleration between A and B amongst other things.
Anyway, where does that leave the razorback P47's??????
Many German aces say there was no way escaping a P47 in a dive, would that relate to acceleration in the dive (where the P47 was definatley very good) or the end speed??
BTW, P51's, and P47's could still roll at very high speed, where the 109 was quite stuck. And the 109 had from a high speed dive, a rather slow and flat recovery. Wonder how that compares with P51 and P47.

[agent 009]

As for 109 being stuck. It is usually reported to be the case, however Tommy Hayes reported differently. he chased a 109 near Berlin in a dive. he said it veered right & in his Mustang he "could not follow" as his controls were froze.

Now as battle was over Berlin, one cannot claim wing tanks were full. And as Tommy Hayes was no beginner, one cannot likewise claim he was not familiar with aircraft or was afraid to push aircraft too hard.

This was from an interview withn him in one of the usual mags, wings. I forget which.

[Angus]

So, that was a P51D right?
Anyway, anyone have an idea about the razorback P47's?

[agent 009]

Yah it was a D.

 I read a british test report on 109, he said I was relieved to find it,( 109 ) like our Hurries & Spits also froze up after 400 mph. This was an E during Bob.

[Angus]

Yeah, some drawbacks.
1. Rolling was practically impossible above 400 mph, same with the Spit.
2. Cramped space and short stick hindered leverage.
3. Heavier stickforces in the vertical.
So basically, the 109 took a much flatter recovery out of a high speed maneuver. When found out, the RAF taught this as a possible evasive tactic.

[agent 009]

regarding leverage, I believe the F had different seating positions to correct to a degree this problem. Someone raised cain with Willy over this & he changed it quick.

Yep, cramped cockpit, but some really liked that as one became a part of the machine. The seat was more like a recliner which meant  unlike Spit & Mustang where seat was more like straight up chair, the 109 pilot could pull more G's without blood running down legs. 190 was likewise setup.

G suits were employed by Spit pilots later in war to alleviate this prob.

[Angus]

Hehe, you did read a lot.
The seat was as in a racecar. Some liked it, some not.
The Spit actually had a stepped rudder pedal for the same effect.
And the G suits, yes, they were in the business, but not much.
AFAIK, late spits could hold some 6 g's with practically no loss of alt. I have some text of this somewhere.
The early 109 was however too heavy on the elevator to be able to push the pilot into a blackout at high speed.
Bunting would get the redout quicker anyway, hehe.

[bunch]

FAA made extensive use of the G-suits in 1945.  Info on them in They Gave Me A Seafire[/b]

[Angus]

The RAF tried them in 44 I belive.
See "Hurricanes over Burma"

[Kurfürst]

Afaik there were two types of G-suits, one was by the Brits and the other by the Yanks. The former used water, and was heavy and ungainly, basically a failure. The Yank one used air pressure, I think that was the Berger suit, from the top of my head. They raised the G-tolerance of the pilot by about 1G, about the same as the reclined seat of German fighters...

[Angus]

You could be right there. Will post from a book on Sunday.
The reclined seat helpe with G's, and the British version was the stepped rudder pedals, to help out a little bit as well.
The G suit was supposed to aid the pilot from passing out, sustaining 6 g's constant. The norm is that 5 g's for 5 secs puts almost anybody into a blackout.
Bear in mind that at high speed the Messer could not be pulled into tight G maneuvers enough to black out the pilot.
So, not much use for a G suit there...

[agent 009]

I once read a comment from  Spit pilot about the G-suit. He was draining water out & the civvies looked puzzled as he did it. He had just been shot down. As I recall he was rather positive about it. Wish now I had this article.