God and the US of A

[Nash]

Is this not getting a wee bit out of control?

Okay up front - I believe in a god... of some kind. I pray when I wake up, and i pray before I go to bed. Every day. And I love the USA.

But it's getting weird now. Aint it? Just a little?

It almost feels like the whole thing is getting hyjacked by people I just cannot relate to.

Yet, these folks are getting embraced... given a voice that I kinda don't think they deserve.

Seperation of church and state should be looked at as one of, if not the most important achievements in the creation of the modern democracy as we know it. It was, afterall, one of the main reasons why a break from England and its monarchy happened.

Yet...

Well... What's happening?

[Sandman]

Silly... God needs our help. If we legislate it correctly, everyone will go to heaven.

[Toad]

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

What examples do you see of  a violation of his statement

"legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"?

What laws? What prohibitions of free exercise?

[Nash]

Are you playin' dumb with me Toad?

[APDrone]

Nash..

e-mail me

drone at airmageddon.com

[Toad]

No, are you?

This is just like the 2nd Amendment thing.

The words and intent are quite clear, particularly when you review the other writings of the Founders and Jefferson in particular.

There's no mystery here. You must be aware that the phrase 'separation of church and state' does not appear in the Constitution.

The whole "separation" thing stems from this letter by Jefferson to Baptists in Danbury, CT.

Other comments by Jefferson:

consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises.

This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States.

Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority (letter to Samuel Miller, Jan. 23, 1808).

Interesting, no? He puts power in religious matters to the STATES.
Think on that a while.

In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the constitution independent of the power of the federal government.

I have therefore undertaken, on no occasion, to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them, as the constitution found them, under the direction of state or church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies (Jefferson's Second Inaugural Address).

Now, tell me of the laws pending in Congress that either establish a national religion or prohibit the free exercise of any religion.

Argue what it says, not what you want it to say.

[WMLute]

awwww come on Toad... this is a thread Nash started....  don't go messing it up with things like "facts" or any sort "rational thought".  You'll end up confusin' the poor little tree hugger with stuff like that.  Better to let him whine and ramble on in his canibus induced haze.

geeezz what were ya' thinkin'????

[Furious]

Originally posted by Toad
...that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions...

Hahaha.  Does any politician believe this anymore?

[Toad]

Well, Furious, I ask you then what laws are pending that will cause the US government to act against you because of your opinions.

[Furious]

You would have to point me to what you and nash are talking about.

I was only commenting on the Jefferson quote.

[Toad]

Furious, you asked if any politician believed that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions.

I asked you what examples YOU can give of the government using its powers to regulate your opinions.

I suspect you will not be able to provide any. Therefore, I guess politicians either believe that or are sufficiently restrained.

Either way, you're free to hold and voice whatever opinions you like. I think you agree with that, too.

[Nash]

Well.. okay Toad.

Since I created the thread, I can't exactly do a drive-by, so I'll go fistacuffs-google-warz with you.

I know it's not going to be easy.

But despite not having the particulars at hand, I do know that what is happening now wrt politics and religion is an aberration in American politics. All too common in other places, in other times. But not in America.

And I know that there are people right now at this very minute generating text as to how and why the government and religion are inextricably coupled, and that church/state are supposed to be one and the same. I know that too.

Those folks, these text genererators, the revisionists, are smarter than me. By a long shot. But they don't fool me.

One thing I dig about the US constitution is.... at its core... it makes sense. It feels right. Fundamental truths. Human truths.

This religious bullchit? It feels like a splinter. It's off. I don't care how many scholars make the case for me believing that religion has a place in government... it will never feel right.

So okay... I'll google warz ya if need be.

Before I waste the time though, please tell me that you aint yankin' my chain about it.

[Toad]

No, I'm not yankin' yer chain.

Just like the Euros that so often misunderstand what "free speech" means in our Constitution, I think you totally misunderstand the 1st Amendment.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I don't really expect you to be well-versed in our Constitution. Lord knows I'm not well-versed in Canada's political documents.

"Separation of church and state" doesn't mean what you want or wish it to mean.

That's all there is to it.

Another quote, this time from closing part of Jefferson's 2nd Inaugural Address:

I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land, and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with his providence, and our riper years with his wisdom and power; and to whose goodness I ask you to join with me in supplications, that he will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures, that whatsoever they do, shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations.

He's asking his fellow citizens pray with him. At his inauguration. I suspect this is one of the things you currently find objectionable in a President?

Before you google yourself to death, please tell us all just what it is that bothers you so. What is happening now wrt politics and religion that is an aberration in American politics?

Specific example(s) please, with an explanation of why you feel these things would be unconstitutional.

Don't try to dodge around. Spit out examples of what's bothering you and why these things are not allowed by our Constitution.

And, for your sweet dreams, riddle me this:

Assume an American Cardinal is the next Pope. (US citizen, meets all "standard" requirements for the Presidency). Assume, for the sake of humor, this Cardinal runs for President of the US and wins. Is there ANY Constitutional reason why he shouldn't be allowed to take office? What in the Constitution prevents the head of the Catholic Church from holding the office of President?

Give me those two things and then we can googlewarz if you like.

[Silat]

nash I agree with totally. But you will never get agreement from the cult members who think their religious values are something that should be legislated.

JeBush

[FUNKED1]

Now, tell me of the laws pending in Congress that either establish a national religion or prohibit the free exercise of any religion.