Author Topic: The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism  (Read 1575 times)

Offline Lizking

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2005, 11:01:50 PM »
Remember this all you bleeding hearts-all of those bankruptcies from stupid-asses are paid for by people who are responsible.  So if you are OK with letting idiots and criminals live the life of riley, until it is "too hard to meet their obligations", then say, "oops!, I fucxked up!", and be clear of debt, you WILL be absorbing the cost of their crime.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2005, 11:34:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Ummmm......try reading his post again. In context, he's talking about how quoting snips of verses can be made to say anything at all, even something ridiculous like go hang yourself.



Course, actually reading the post and thinking about it might mean stepping outside your assumptions about religious people...

Never mind



Ding Ding Ding Ding!!!!!

No more calls please, we have a winner.
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Offline Seagoon

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2005, 01:31:27 AM »
Even as I type this, the old ditty about fools rushing in occurs to me. Anyway, on I rush...

First, a little context. In the 19th century, higher criticism, largely hailing from Germany, began to reshape biblical scholarship in the mainline Protestant denominations. While it had many different permutations the essential anti-supernaturalist presuppositions were essentialy the same for all the various schools. Since, from a rationalist point of view, miracles were impossible and God was unknowable, the bible could not be His revelation to men and the contents were clearly ancient mythology. This led many seminary and university faculties to turn from seeking to exposit the scriptures to focusing on deconstructing them and speculating endlessly on their origins. Meanwhile, many churches and churchmen freed from belief in the accuracy of the bible and the need to preach the gospel (after all if sin, salvation, heaven, and hell were all mythological constructions replaced by confidence in light-bulbs and psychology why bother going on about them?) turned instead to preaching what became known as the "social-gospel."

This social gospel had as its agenda creating the kingdom of heaven here on earth. The teaching of Christ and the apostles and OT prophets were redacted down to a system where the Christian message of eternal salvation through faith in Christ was replaced by a crass moralism in which people were told to be good, follow the golden rule, avoid demon drink, and do works of charity, etc. They were told that if everyone simply strove to be ethical, heaven on earth would be created and all men would live in harmony. Instead of people being redeemed, the social-gospel sought to reform society. This end was to be achieved via preaching and political activism. The movement came to be known as Christian liberalism (although politically, its aims were often quite conservative), and was vigorously opposed by what came to be known as Christian fundamentalists (who got their name from a series of pamphlets called "The Fundamentals" which called for evangelicals of all denominations to unite behind the essential or core teachings of the bible such as the Innerancy of Scripture, Divinity of Christ, Exclusivity of the Gospel, the Virgin Birth , etc.)

While the First World War put paid to the idea that Christian liberalism could create "heaven on earth" (after all it had become the dominant theological paradigm in both Britain and Germany prior to WW1) and led many in Europe and the USA to abandon Christianity entirely as hypocritical nonsense,  it had already conquered most of the mainline denominations (the Episcopalians, the Northern Presbyterians, the Congregationalists, UCC, United Methodists, etc.) so what where these churches and churchmen to do and preach? The only answer they could offer was to continue to use the pulpit to advance political ends and social aims. So these churches strove to figure out where the progressive edge of society was going and then jump in front and claim to be leading the way. Over the years then, churchmen (and increasingly churchwomen) played a leading role in advocating for progressive causes such as women's suffrage, penal reform, prohibition, the war on poverty, civil rights, nuclear disarmament, the abolition of the death penalty, environmental activism, and nowadays abortion on demand, euthanasia, homosexual marriage, anti-big tobacco and so on.

In all of these causes the scriptures were ransacked and quoted entirely out of context. After all, their original meaning was distrusted and dismissed by liberal Christianity, so why not put them (and the respect they still had with the populace) to some "good" use?

Which brings us to the current day and Mr. Gonsalves. Mr. Gonsalves is a frequent spokesman for various left-wing political causes and social activism organisations (for instance this one ) and true to the time-honored liberal Christian methodology has employed a few quotes from a Bible he does not believe to support a political cause he fervently believes will make the world a better place.

Personally, I detest both liberal and conservative "social gospels" because merely striving to improve society by political means was never the objective of Christ or the authors of the bible. Rather the ultimate objective of all the books of the bible was summed up in the famous "tellic note" (from the Greek word tellos meaning "ends") of John 20:30-31:
"And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

Ultimately the aim of the Bible is precisely what liberal Christians have long denied, to make God known to His fallen Creation via an authentic testimony, and then through faith in His Son, to reconcile God and Man and open the gates of heaven to redeemed sinners. The essential change in character this transformation of heart produces will have social benefits (via good works, etc.) but ultimately that was never the ends of the bible, just a by-product of salvation.

Now men may not believe that message of salvation, but to turn the bible into a quote book for whatever the political cause celebre' of the day is (especially when you don't believe a word of it) and then claim the high ground while doing so really is beyond the pale.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Heiliger

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2005, 01:43:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Ultimately the aim of the Bible is precisely what liberal Christians have long denied, to make God known to His fallen Creation via an authentic testimony, and then through faith in His Son, to reconcile God and Man and open the gates of heaven to redeemed sinners. The essential change in character this transformation of heart produces will have social benefits (via good works, etc.) but ultimately that was never the ends of the bible, just a by-product of salvation.

Now men may not believe that message of salvation, but to turn the bible into a quote book for whatever the political cause celebre' of the day is (especially when you don't believe a word of it) and then claim the high ground while doing so really is beyond the pale.

- SEAGOON


:aok

Offline lazs2

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2005, 08:24:41 AM »
thanks seagoon... I have allways felt that the church should stay out of social matters except for it's own charitable works..   One of the main things that drove me away from religion was their political bent.   Once you realize that they are a political animal it is easy to shun them.

lazs

storch

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2005, 08:59:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
thanks seagoon... I have allways felt that the church should stay out of social matters except for it's own charitable works..   One of the main things that drove me away from religion was their political bent.   Once you realize that they are a political animal it is easy to shun them.

lazs


yup I agree

Offline Seagoon

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2005, 02:20:04 PM »
This question isn't an academic one for me either, our Friday morning bible study is mostly made up of Black  factory workers who are life-long Democrats, while our Wednesday night Bible study is mostly white military guys who are all strongly Republican, if I were to develop a penchant for injecting my party politics into my preaching and teaching, I would inevitably make myself unnecessarily obnoxious to one group or another. So, I stick to alienating friends and family, (oh and you lads - sorry), with political banter.

A while back I was sent an questionaire from a prof. at a local university who was working on a thesis advocating greater involvement on the part of clergy in partisan political issues (if you can believe it). After filling out his questionaire I attached the following letter [my apologies for the length]:

Dear Dr. ...,

In answering the questions included, I wish to note that I have done so as a private citizen, and not in my official capacity as the pastor of Providence PCA church. While it is commonplace these days for preachers to address political issues from the pulpit or even to invite politicians to speak in their churches on the Lord’s Day, our denomination strongly affirms the principle that the calling of pastors is to preach the Gospel, rather than to become involved in disputations over the political issues of the day. This does not mean that we may not speak to ethical issues, but only in so far as they are addressed in the Bible, and we would affirm the principle that Gospel ministers should avoid even the appearance of being involved in the party political activities. As Pastor R.B. Kuiper put it:

"Just because the preaching of the Word is so great a task the church must devote itself to it alone. For the church to undertake other activities, not indissolubly bound up with this one, is a colossal blunder, because it inevitably results in neglect of its proper task. Let not the church degenerate into a social club. Let not the church go into the entertainment business. Let not the church take sides on such aspects of economics, politics, or natural science as are not dealt with in the Word of God. And let the church be content to teach special, not general revelation. Let the church be the church."

The best summary of the dangers of Pastors becoming directly involved in civil affairs and thus becoming “political preachers” that I have yet read was in a short article written by the Presbyterian Theologian, R.L. Dabney in the 19th century:

PREACHERS AND POLITICS  
By Robert L. Dabney

The appropriate mission of the minister is to preach the gospel for the salvation of souls. The servant who, by diverging into some other project not especially enjoined on him, nor essential for him to perform, precludes himself from his allotted task, is clearly guilty of disobedience to his master, if not of treason to his charge. Now, questions of politics must ever divide the minds of men; for they are not decided by any recognized standards of truth, but by the competitions of interest and passion. Hence, it is inevitable that he who embarks publicly in the discussion of these questions must become the object of party animosities and obnoxious to those whom he opposes. How then can he successfully approach them as the messenger of redemption? By thus transcending his proper functions, he criminally prejudices his appointed work with half the community, for the whole of which he should affectionately labour.

God has reserved for our spiritual concerns one day out of seven, and has appointed one place into which nothing shall enter, except the things of eternity, and has ordained an order of officers, whose sole charge is to remind their fellow-men of their duty to God. ... But when the world sees a portion or the whole of this sacred season abstracted from spiritual concerns, and given to secular agitations, and that by the appointed guardians of sacred things, it is the most emphatic possible disclosure of unbelief. It says to men, “Eternity is not of more moment than time; heaven is not better than earth; a man is profited if he gains the world and loses his soul, for do you not see that we postpone eternity to time, and heaven to earth, and redemption to political triumph—we who are the professed guardians of the former?” One great source, therefore, of political preaching may always be found in the practical unbelief of [the preacher] himself; as one of its sure fruits is infidelity among the people. He is not feeling the worth of souls, nor the “powers of the world to come,” nor “the constraining love of Christ” as he should; if he were, no sense of the temporal importance of his favorite political measures, however urgent, would cause the wish to abstract an hour from the few allowed him for saving souls. We solemnly protest to every minister who feels the impulse to introduce the secular into his pulpit, that he thereby betrays a decadent faith and spiritual life in his own breast. Let him take care! He is taking the first steps toward backsliding, apostasy, damnation.

Weak defences of this abuse have been attempted. It is asked, “Is not the minister also a citizen?” The answer is, “He is a citizen only out of the pulpit , and on a secular day. In the pulpit he is only the ambassador of Christ.” It is urged again, that Peter, Paul, and the Lord Jesus Christ, taught political duties. We reply: Would that the pests of modern Christianity had truly imitated them; had taken not only their texts, but their discourses from them, instead of deriving the latter from the newspapers. Let them do as the sacred writers do: teach the duties of allegiance from the Christian side and motive only, “that the word of God and his Gospel be not blasphemed.” Another plea is, that Christianity is designed to produce important collateral results on the social order of nations; as that the social order reacts on Christianity. The answer is twofold: that these secular results are the minor, the eternal redemption of souls is the chief end of God in his Gospel.
...
“The preacher’s business is just to show the people what is in the Bible,” as God has there set it forth. This principle cuts up by the roots the whole fashion of “preaching up the times,” as it was quaintly called by our Scotch forefathers. If the preacher’s business is the redemption of the soul, and his instrument is the Bible truth, it is plain that he has no business in the pulpit with …politics … and all the farrago of subjects with which infidel ministers of Christianity essay to eke out, as they suppose, the deficient interest and power of the message of salvation. The preacher’s business in the pulpit is to make Christians, and not to make … statesmen, historians, or social philosophers. His message from the pulpit is that which God has put into his mouth, and nothing else. The question may be asked: “Are Bible principles never to be applied, then, to the correction of the social evils of the day by those who are the appointed expounders of the Bible?” So far as God so applies them in the Bible, yes; but no farther. Let the preacher take the application of the principles, as well as the principles applied, from the word of God; let him take, not only his starting position but his whole topics, from God’s word, and he will be in no danger of incurring that sarcasm, as biting as it is just, directed against those who “take their texts from the Bible, and their sermons from the newspapers.” Many preachers seem to think that if it is a scriptural principle which  they  use,   it  matters  not  how   unscriptural  or  extrascriptural is the use which they make of it. They forget that it does not follow, because a man has drawn his weapon from the king’s armory, that therefore he is fighting the king’s battle; soldiers have sometimes used the sovereign’s arms to fight duels with each other. It may be asked again: “Is the preacher to forego and disuse all that influence for social good which his Christian intelligence gives him? Has he ceased to be a citizen and patriot because he has become a minister? No. But when he appears in the pulpit he appears not as a citizen but as God’s herald. Here is a very simple and obvious distinction much neglected. The other channels of patriotic influence are open to him which other citizens use, so far as he may use them without prejudice to his main calling. To cleave to this alone is made his obvious duty by three reasons. The importance of the soul’s redemption is transcendent. All social evils, all public and national ends, sink into trifles beside it. Hence God’s ministers owe this practical tribute and testimony at least to this great truth; to devote all the machinery and power of religious ordinances—that single domain into which the all-engrossing world does not intrude—to this one grand object. That minister is false to truth and to his Master who says by his conduct that there is anything on earth important enough to subtract one atom of sacred time or sacred ordinances from their one great object. Again, by securing the redemption of the soul, the preacher will secure all else that is valuable in his hearers. Let him make good Christians, and all the rest will come right without farther care. ...  And last, he who undertakes the work of the social philosopher, the legislator, the politician, will diminish his energies, zeal, time, and influence for promoting his higher object. He will waste on the less those energies of head and heart which were all needed for the greater. He will shut up his access for good to all the minds which are opposed to him on these secular questions, and thus incur a hindrance which will incapacitate him for his own Master’s work, by undertaking work which belonged to other people. What is this but treason?
---------
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Gunslinger

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2005, 05:07:03 PM »
Two great posts Seagoon. I appreciate your input.


Not to hijack but:

I have to ask you as a man of the church if you've seen the new show on ABC I beleive called "revelation"?

I've been watching it and as entertaining as it is as a show it does not seem wholey accurate as far what I've been taught about "revealations".

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2005, 10:46:21 PM »
Hi Gunslinger,

I wish I could be of more help, but I haven't watched much on the big three networks in the past 5 years (I believe the series is actually on NBC) - to tell the truth the limited time I get to watch TV is mostly spent on Netflix rentals, blipping between News channels, and of course the history channel.

It doesn't surprise me that you aren't seeing much bible to TV match up, I haven't seen anything even vaguely biblically accurate on the networks in years (Noah 's Ark - also NBC - was the last attempt I struggled through). My guess would be a network attempt to cash in on the interest generated by the "Left Behind" novels and the "The Passion of the Christ." I'm expecting bad theology , ecumenism, cultist crazies, and limited use of the dreaded "J" word. But I could be way off.

If I get any good stuff sent my way on the subject, I'll post it here.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Gunslinger

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2005, 11:21:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Gunslinger,

I wish I could be of more help, but I haven't watched much on the big three networks in the past 5 years (I believe the series is actually on NBC) - to tell the truth the limited time I get to watch TV is mostly spent on Netflix rentals, blipping between News channels, and of course the history channel.

It doesn't surprise me that you aren't seeing much bible to TV match up, I haven't seen anything even vaguely biblically accurate on the networks in years (Noah 's Ark - also NBC - was the last attempt I struggled through). My guess would be a network attempt to cash in on the interest generated by the "Left Behind" novels and the "The Passion of the Christ." I'm expecting bad theology , ecumenism, cultist crazies, and limited use of the dreaded "J" word. But I could be way off.

If I get any good stuff sent my way on the subject, I'll post it here.

- SEAGOON


I've read the entire "left behind" series and I have to ask.  With all the profecy rapture talk my parents give me, how biblicly accurate is the series.  I realize it is a fictional representation but I'm more interested in the timeline.  I've aslo read another book titled "101 questions about revelations" or something to that sort.  It talks about 3 different types of timelines (beleifs)  I'm curious which one you follow.

Offline Heiliger

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2005, 01:55:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I've read the entire "left behind" series and I have to ask.  With all the profecy rapture talk my parents give me, how biblicly accurate is the series.  I realize it is a fictional representation but I'm more interested in the timeline.


:(


Scriptura scripturae interpres!  Interpret Revelation with the Epistles and Gospels. :aok


Quote
I've aslo read another book titled "101 questions about revelations" or something to that sort.  It talks about 3 different types of timelines (beleifs)  I'm curious which one you follow.


Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and Postmillennialism?

(by the way Gunslinger it's Revelation not revelations.  Sorry it's a pet peeve of mine :D )

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2005, 02:04:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Heiliger
:(


Scriptura scripturae interpres!  Interpret Revelation with the Epistles and Gospels. :aok




Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and Postmillennialism?

(by the way Gunslinger it's Revelation not revelations.  Sorry it's a pet peeve of mine :D )


do ya think you could post a reply in lamens (SP) terms? :)

Offline Heiliger

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2005, 02:08:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
do ya think you could post a reply in lamens (SP) terms? :)


Sorry sir.  :o

Scripture interprets scripture, just make sure when you read Revelation, you do it through the lens of the rest of scripture.

:D

Offline Simaril

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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2005, 05:58:36 AM »
Not an expert by any means, but I've heard the theological discussion in terms whether the rapture is to come before the tribulation (pretribulation); at the midpoint, when the antichrist desecrates the Temple (midtribulation); and after the tribulation, essentially at the same time as Jesus' return (post tribulation).


And for those who are not believers, and who might think that this uncertainty reflects Biblical unreliability or contradictions -- don't get the wrong idea. The Bible is not written as a historical textbook or a  theological treatise. It's overriding goal is to point mankind towards understanding who God is, and toward developing an active, meaningful relationship with him. Prophecy of future events, and descriptions of past events, are of course included -- but they are presented in the context of calling individual people into relationship with a very real, adn very personal, God who is desperately in love with us and desperately wants to see us chose to love him.

The point of tribulational prophecy shouldnt be seen as being able to hedge some spiritual stock market -- the troubles to come (it seems to me) are meant to be literal and clear demonstration of just how far God is willing to push humans to get them to chose to wake up and come to him.
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Offline wrag

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« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2005, 02:51:34 PM »
Hmmm......

There are some that argue there is NO rapture, there will be NO rapture, there are NO scriptures that speak of the rapture.

The claim is the person that originally came up with the idea of a rapture was ill as in mentally.

Further there is a warning contained within the scriptures that one should NOT seek to escape via the air.

That the rapture shall be, or is, a tool to be used by the anti-christ.

That nowhere within scripture is anything found to support the rapture theory.

That the reference to clouds refers to the number of people reponding rather then the actual location of those people.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.