Author Topic: BELL P-39 airocobra  (Read 2039 times)

storch

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BELL P-39 airocobra
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2005, 07:41:55 AM »
the export version, the P-400 with the 20mm popgun and less armor was reported to perform nicely.

Offline spitfiremkv

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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2005, 11:00:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by agent 009
Yes it looked good. It was a ***** to work on. Rall shot down 50 of em. Didn't think much of it. Russians liked it. I think it was Yeager that said P-63 could outturn Mustang & thought it was better, even bought one for racing at Reno after war.



that's probably due to the poor skills of most Soviet pilots.

think about it: lots of people, lots of free planes from Uncle Sam....put them together and send them to battle. good ones survive, poor ones don't.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2005, 11:23:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by agent 009
Rall shot down 50 of em. Didn't think much of it.


Do you have the breakdown for the other 225 a/c he claimed?

Offline agent 009

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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2005, 12:01:54 PM »
Um not at hand. He did get a few Russian flown spits.

As for poor quality of Russian pilots, yes & no. Early in war yes, later no.

The other factor is that Russian airforce operated at low altitude for army cooperation. This gave germans advantage of the bounce.

Some german pilots who were transferred to med in 43 said Russians were better than Americans, but that it was down to the fact that the US pilots were green. Heinz Bar did say Americans were tougher than Brits, they would fight you all the way down,( as opposed to breaking off engagement I assume he means ).

Offline Angus

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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2005, 01:12:22 PM »
I have the complete breakdown, dates and type.
Takes compiling though.

If AH modells the P39 I think it would probably see as much use as the P40.
However, the P63 would definately be another story....;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Furball

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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2005, 01:38:57 PM »
its american!! must have it!!

cant wait to use them 2k bombs and 20 rockets!
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2005, 04:38:09 PM »
No, seriously Furbie, the Kingcobra was a fine, fast aircraft, and packed a punch.
But, of course me wants a Spit VIII and a IX LF +25 first, hehe.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline humble

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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2005, 05:15:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
that's probably due to the poor skills of most Soviet pilots.

think about it: lots of people, lots of free planes from Uncle Sam....put them together and send them to battle. good ones survive, poor ones don't.


I think your completely underestimating the quality of the russian pilot...these are quotes from the german perspective....

One of the II. Gruppe's pilots, Leutnant Helmut Lipfert, later recalled: "Things did not go well for II Gruppe at Anapa. There were few contacts with the enemy but many losses. And it was not just the beginners and young pilots who failed to return, but some of the old hands as well." It was obvious that the Soviets were gaining in on the German fighter pilots' initial advantage in air combat.

The first encounters with Soviet pilots after his return from home leave convinced Grislawski that what he had been told by Krupinski was right, that the air fighting on the Eastern Front had grown more dangerous than ever

"I./JG 52 was stationed at the other end of Taman Airdrome. Grislawski grabbed a bicycle and rapidly made it to the first Gruppe's command post, located in a bus. He found his old friend Kabisch waiting for him outside. They hugged, and it felt as if the past four years were gone. Grislawski felt tears in his eyes, but not tears of joy.
"Man, Kabisch!" he gasped. "Why have you come here?"
Kabisch just shrugged his shoulders. "You know-war. . . I volunteered for pilot training, just like you. . ."
"But that's different!" Grislawski exclaimed with discontent.
Kabisch looked hurt.
"What do you mean? I'm a Feldwebel now, and. . ."
"That doesn't matter!" Grislawski interrupted him. "How many sorties have you made?"
"About twenty-five."
Grislawski shook his head.
"Helmut," he almost whispered. "You stand with one foot in the grave. This is no game, and things are no longer what they used to be here in Russia."
"Oh, come on, Alfred!" Kabisch patted Grislawski's back: "I just got my seventh. . ."
Feldwebel Helmut Kabisch, the old recruit trainer who had become a fighter pilot, was immensely proud of his seven first victories. The last one had been achieved against a LaGG-3 at 1620 hours on 20 April 1943.
But his rash attitude only increased Grislawski's preoccupation. "These damned greenhorns," Grislawski thought. "And now Kabisch too!"
"Look, Helmut!" Grislawski yelled. "Forget about all that rubbish with easy victories! You have to be damned cautious!"
Then he pulled Kabisch, who looked both disappointed and surprised, aside. When he was sure that no one was listening, he said:
"I have a suggestion, and I hope you will follow it. This is no place for a beginner! But I've got some connections. I can contact Hermann Graf, and he will use his influence to have you transferred to my gang. There I will be able to watch over you! You have to get at least fifty combat sorties before you've got any chance at all!"
But Kabisch wasn't intrigued at all by his old friend's suggestion. "Come on, Alfred," he said and sighed. "I don't need any babysitter. And besides of that, I've been with the second Staffel for a couple of weeks, and they all are swell guys."
With a feeling of hopelessness, Grislawski made another try: "Helmut, those swell guys will all be gone in fourteen days, or you will be gone! You might just as well go pick a suitable coffin right now. I guarantee that only under my wings will you be able to survive fifty sorties!"
But Kabisch's pride would not allow him to accept the proposal. Grislawski felt deeply sad when he returned to his biletting."

" On the Soviet side, the Lend-Lease Airacobra fighter planes of 16 GIAP (former 55 IAP, which had been adopted a Guards unit) and 45 IAP were in the forefront during the air combats throughout the day. These unit was two of III./JG 52's old enemies, since the battles over the Mius Front in late 1941, the Kerch Peninsula in May 1942, and the war in southern Caucasus during the previous fall. By now, both units had developed into two of the most experienced VVS regiments. The two most famous 45 IAP aces were the two Glinka brothers, Boris and Dmitriy. The latter, a Starshiy Leytenant, had been shot down by 7./JG 52's Jupp Zwernemann on April 15, 1943. But Dmitriy Glinka soon was back in action again. He had already been recommended to be appointed a Hero of the Soviet Union, and on 21 April, he bagged his twenty-first German aircraft. 16 GIAP, mustering the later so well-known Kapitan Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Grigoriy Rechkalov, and Starshiy Leytenant Vadim Fadeyev in its ranks, chalked up fifty-seven victories in the Kuban skies between 9 and 20 April 1943."
http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/kuban.htm

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Offline Angus

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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2005, 07:09:11 PM »
Well, yet, under horrible combat conditions, the LW pilots racked up the ultimate scores on the eastern front, while losses there were relatively much much less.
I have the feeling that a good bulk of the red airforce was rather badly equipped, badly organized and rather green, while some units were absolutely elite.
I remember a quote from a LW pilot regarding the US fighters of the red airforce, - it was something like "bad news, for they had much better gunsights, so at least you would know they could shoot properly"
Apparently, many early  soviet aircraft had only a point in the windshield.
Did anybody hear any more of this?

Anyway, the P63 was sent to USSR by the thousands AFAIK, and ironically, fighting the LW fighters down low, it was probably as good, or better than what the Allies had on the western front.

Except for range.....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2005, 07:22:50 PM »
The Russian front was like the reverse of the western front. The Germans had the better altitude performance in the east.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2005, 07:54:36 PM »
Well, yes, absoluely, but most of the fightings none the less took place at very low alt, and still the scores were completely amazing.
Just not enuff for victory....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline humble

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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2005, 08:04:43 PM »
Actually the scores werent all that amazing at all, the german expertain were easily the best and most experienced pilots in the world....however the vast majority of luftwaffe pilots simply dissapeared into the abyss. The majority died within their 1st 15 to 20 sorties and many never even got to fire a shot in anger (that hit anything at least). The vast majority of kills were run up thru mid to late 42. By1943 the russians were a good match for the germans in the east.

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Offline GScholz

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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2005, 09:38:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Well, yes, absoluely, but most of the fightings none the less took place at very low alt ...


That's my point. The Russians were best down low, the Germans medium alt, and the western allies at high alt. The western allies were doing to the Germans what the Germans were doing to the Russians. Attain a superior initial advantage in altitude and initiative. Attack with the advantage of dive speed (B&Z). Disengage at will.
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Offline spitfiremkv

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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2005, 10:02:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
I think your completely underestimating the quality of the russian pilot...these are quotes from the german perspective....



humble man, you are sort of disproving yourself here. the mere fact that your so-called greenhorn pilot got seven kills in his first 25 sorties shows that he was better prepared than his adversaries and flying a better aircraft.

as for the Me109 or the 190 being superior to the P39 or P63, there's no doubt about that.

Offline agent 009

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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2005, 11:29:52 PM »
Willi Batz got his 237 in the space of a year. Most of it in 44. I think that was it, 237.

Have a read through the new Stackpole aces book. He had a tough encounter with one of Russia's top aces.

Barkhorn liked to outturn his Russian opponents.  they say he once had a 40 minute dogfight.