The Barrel Roll

[SkyLab]

Can someone tell me the stick/rudder/throttle inputs needed to do a proper barrel roll?

I have been killed more than once by some of the better pilots who took away my advantage with a barrel roll. Boom, I am dead.

I have also killed people who thought they were doing a barrel roll when actually they were just spinning like a top right in front of my guns.

Any help will be appreciated.

[TequilaChaser]

Barrel Roll Left - Pull stick back and to the left

Barrel Roll Right- Pull Stick back and to the right

Snap Roll Left - pull stick back HARD  and stomp rudder hard left

Snap Roll Right- pull stick back HARD and stomp rudder hard right

throttle is negligible for the barrel roll ( negligible = Not significant or important enough to be worth considering; trifling.)

unless you are in a type of scissors maneuver

I have also killed people who thought they were doing a barrel roll when actually they were just spinning like a top right in front of my guns.

that would be an aileron roll

[dtango]

When needed I like putting some rudder input along with the aileron and elevator input mentioned by TC.

Barrel Roll Left - Pull stick back and to the left, left rudder

Barrel Roll Right- Pull Stick back and to the right, right rudder

The rudder input helps me increase the rate "around" the barrel if I'm wanting to tighten up the barrel roll for whatever reason.  The tighter the barrel the more rudder input needed.

A simple way to practice this is just to go offline and try barrel rolls with AH film recording and then go back and watch the film with trail on to see how your flight path looks vs. what you were seeing in the cockpit etc.

Do this until you feel comfortable with performing barrels rolls with a variety of "cylinder" diameters.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[SkyLab]

Thx fellas.

Now all I have to do is learn how to shoot.

[Cobra412]

One thing I've noticed is to not always do a text book barrell roll. Especially when your in a defensive posture. Alternate and mix up your text book rolls with some uncoordinated rolls through out any one engagement.

If they are defeating you with a barrell roll when you initially had the advantage (most likely behind their 3 and 9 line) your probably coming in to hot or not hot enough.

If you know you can turn with them then you need to come in fast initially and then put on the brakes at the right time. It's tricky because if you don't judge their speed correctly then your gonna over shoot and be in deep trouble. I will typically drop some flaps, throttle off, and cross up my controls  (ailerons left or right a bit and some opposite rudder to keep me level) to create as much drag as possible without making me totally unstable. The key is if you can slow down quickly enough then typically you'll surprise them because they will be expecting you  to over shoot due to your initial high rate of closure. Instead of using a hard break turn or a hard barrell roll that would bleed alot of energy they will try to maintain as much energy as possible in their barrell roll so they can get a quick gun solution as you pass. If they react accordingly then you will have the advantage.

Be cautious though and be ready to maneuver hard if they realise your closure rate has decreased dramatically or if they are expecting this type of trick. They will almost be guaranteed to break turn or split S if they realise what's going on. If that's the case you can use high or low yo yos for the break turn and a lag pursuit for the split S. If it's a better turner don't press the break turn or Split S. Turn your stored E into altitude and seperation.

If you know you can't turn with them keep your speed high and try not to force a shot. If it's not there then use your stored energy to gain altitude and in the process gain potential energy and seperation from your target. From there you can press the attack again. Some guys here have extrodinary gunnery. Seems you can't avoid them no matter how quick you are during your run or what slight jink you may use directly after your run to spoil a shot. I use this a bit and it seems to work for me and my flying style. It's not guaranteed though. You can try it and it may help you some.

[DamnedRen]

Close guys

A barrel roll is picking a point somewhere out on the horizon (or any point you chose) then rolling the nose around that point.

For example, if you looked at a bullseye the point dead center that you aim at is the point you would be rolling around. Any of the other circles of the bullseye would be "how much" you roll the nose around that center point.

The object of a barrel roll is to cover less forward movement over the ground without losing speed.

Picture this if some guy is flying straight ahead then he is covering ground at a certain airspeed and which fly over a point on the ground in 1 minute..

If another plane flies beside him at the same speed but barrel rolls then his plane does not move over the ground in the same time period so he is actually flying at the same speed but taking longer to fly over the same point on the ground than the guy flying straight and level.  It may take him 1min and 6 seconds. That 6 seconds is why the guy, flying straight and level, squirts out in front.

Now how do you do it? Lets do it to the  left in the first instance.

Pick a point on the horizon to roll around.
Roll left 5-10 degrees.
Ease the stick back into an easy climb
Begin a roll to the right while applying LEFT rudder.

You will see as you apply left rudder the nose will begin to point a little higher and begin to rotate your nose around that point you picked out in the horizon.

The more you ease the stick back the bigger the rotation around the point. But the larger the roll the more you will slow. Only rotate around the point as required to force the guy through but minimize speed loss. If you do that he will pop in front and you will have 3-6 seconds for a shot. You only need 1.

If you want to do it to the right just do the opposite:

Pick a point on the horizon to roll around.
Roll right 5-10 degrees.
Ease the stick back into an easy climb
Begin a roll to the left while applying RIGHT rudder.


 Beware: if you go to full rudder and briskly pull the stick all the back you will snap roll. That's just a function of Angle of Attack (AOA) and you can exceed it quickly if your not careful. If you do snap the plane just ease the stick forward until you reduce the angle of attack.

Snap rolls can be your friend. It's just an accelerated stall. If you want more on snap rolls just post a question here.

[pellik]

Originally posted by Cobra412
Be cautious though and be ready to maneuver hard if they realise your closure rate has decreased dramatically or if they are expecting this type of trick. They will almost be guaranteed to break turn or split S if they realise what's going on. If that's the case you can use high or low yo yos for the break turn and a lag pursuit for the split S. If it's a better turner don't press the break turn or Split S. Turn your stored E into altitude and seperation.

It's my experience that all they have to do is match your throttle cut and then your overshoot is all the more fatal.

-p.

[stantond]

Ren's description is how I do a barrel roll.  Although pulling back on the stick while rolling will produce a spiraling roll that could be considered a barrel roll.  Filming what you are doing to see the effect is the best tool to use when learning how to perform this maneuver.

I find a barrel roll quite helpful after diving down and missing the dead six shot (which is most of the time) and want to slow down but still keep some altitude and an eye on the nme.  A barrell roll is just the trick while chopping the throttle.  I also use it to bleed speed before landing when coming in fast and low.  



Regards,

Malta

[TequilaChaser]

Skylab,

you now have almost every description from SIMPLE to ADVANCED  for doing barrel rolls. and some description of a snap roll.

now all you need is time spent practicing. Yes using the rudder at times will help in a barrel roll, but if you do not have rudders, you still can perform a barrel roll.

A = left rudder
S = center rudder
D = right rudder

for keyboard commands if you do not have a twisty stick rudder or rudder pedals

if you would like to hook up with a Trainer email us at:

trainers(at)hitechcreations.com

[SkyLab]

This is one thing I like about AH2, there are always people willing to help and give advice.

Thanks to all who replied.

Now I will have to pratice the barrel roll untill I am confident enough to use it in that madhouse called "The Main Arena".

[Cobra412]

Pellik true. That's very possible. It's a gamble doing this. Majority of the time I won't try it unless I've made atleast one or two passes. I can then see if they know what they are doing and then choose how I want to proceed.

[humble]

I'll add a couple points I think are missing so far....

1) "preperation"....the real key is the 5 to 10 seconds before the barrel roll itself. It's awful easy to make yourself a sitting duck. I've found most of the real good sticks will set you up for it in some way....

2) creation of a significant variation in E state....for a barrel roll to work "right" you need the other guy to be both commited to a shot and faster....you need both to make it work well....

As an example I'll usually speed the fight up with decending turn...then reverse with some neg G....as I reverse again I'll chop throttle and try and present the opening of the barrel roll as another turn....if I do it right the con has focused on the "shot" and cant manage the closure....

The opposite is the poor guy executing that perfect barrel roll 300 in front of you....basically its a fancy overshoot.

[Cobra412]

Humble a typical setup I use to force an overshoot is as follows. I can typically get a gun shot off after the overshoot.

If I'm already at a disadvantage I'll give them my 6. As they start their approach I will slowly start a very shallow nose down low g banking turn. It will present a low g lead guns solution for the enemy. As they start pressing for the lead shot I'll start slightly tightening up my turn. As I they come within firing range and at about the point of overshooting. I'll do a quick hard pull in the bank and release then go immediately to a nose low roll. If it's timed correctly you can catch them just as their overshooting. They'll indicate about D200 to D400 once you've come around on the nose low roll.

I also use a similiar tactic where as the enemy is coming down on me I'll turn back into them. I'll try to come across their nose from about their 10 or 2 position. As they are pulling to get a shot I'll push nose over a bit or I'll pull nose high slightly at the last second with a little slide to avoid the crossing shot. Just as they are overshooting I can go to that same nose low roll and come out fairly close to them as they go past. If their e state is pretty good it make take a few cycles before you can get them to force a shot and blow their E. It takes alot of patience because some guys are so stubborn they won't force the shot. Which basically means you'll end up in a stale mate unless you force something and mess up or they force something and mess up. If they are greedy then they'll typically blow it after the second pass and you'll come out on their 6 at about D400 to D600 and at about an even E state.

[Grizzly]

All this talk about forcing an overshoot kinda scares me. It's like "hitting the brakes and they'll fly on by" from Topguns. Not that this isn't a valid move (that scene from Topguns really happened), it's presented as a last ditch, do or die maneuver.

There is another use for a barrel roll or scissors move that needs discussion. That is to get your opponent out of sync with your plane. When you make a move, there is a short lag until an opponent on your six can match it. When you make a turn to the left, your opponent cannot follow until his wings are banked to the left. So it's most important for your opponent to stay in plane with you (the flat surface type plane that is). He must keep his wings parallel with yours.

The barrel roll, or scissors, affectively puts your opponent out of plane with you. So if you follow it up with a high or low (depending on your E state) turn, such as a yo-yo, he may not be in a proper position to follow. The neat thing about a barrel roll is that you can easily use the up or down swing to enter a vertical turn seemlessly.

[Cobra412]

Grizzly essentially that's what is happening to him if he's getting beat by a barrell roll when he originally had the advantage. If he doesn't understand how it's being used against him then he can't counter it or learn how to avoid it.

If your at a disadvantage and your opponent gets comfortable thinking your at a disadvantage that's when you can spring a maneuver like this. The worst thing for anyone who originally was calling all the stops is to light them up when they least expect it. Even if it doesn't kill them right away it lets them know that regardless of their current advantageous position they are still vunerable. In the end they will try to press something to end the fight quickly. That's when you've got them where you want them.