Author Topic: scissors  (Read 539 times)

Offline Nightshift82

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 526
scissors
« on: April 21, 2005, 07:06:55 PM »
ok I don't think I understand the scissors move very well.  all you do is 1/4 aileron Roll, break left, 1/4 aileron roll, break right.  keep doing this untill target is in sights.  is this right?  is there something else there?
Night5  
First tour: 55  (If anyone cares.......)

Offline dtango

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1702
scissors
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2005, 08:01:13 PM »
Here's a good write up on scissors from Andy Bush at SimHQ.com.

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html

Scissors are a defensive BFM maneuver.  Hope this helps!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline TequilaChaser

  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10173
      • The Damned - founded by Ptero in 1988
scissors
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2005, 08:21:55 PM »
after the intial roll of 1/4 or 90deg then break, each succeeding roll will be a min of 180 deg or 1/2 roll, the objective is to push your opponent out infront of you, so you should be using everything you got, your throttle, your speed, flaps, maybe even throw in a barrel roll to get him in a rolling scissors.  You can try to keep your speed equalized and use lag turns ( pointing nose of your plane behind the opponents 6 instead of dead on it), or you could drop flaps and work throttle to bleed your opponents E with each succeeding break turn.  To know if you are gaining on the angles advantage is to view him in your  back-up/straight - up / forward - up  views. If he is beginning to move around from behind to the front you are gaining if he remains nearly the same spot each break turn you are bout equal , if he is moving to the back-up view you are losing the fight.

email us at

trainers(at)hitechcreations.com
 
one of us will be glad to meet up with you and work on proper scissors technique in the TA.
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline mechanic

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11307
scissors
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2005, 02:43:44 AM »
very nicely put TC. cant add anything other than, by learning to judge when you are losing this 3d chase me battle, you can also know when to try other deffensive moves like plain striaght overshoots and stall manouvers. losing the scissors isnt the end of the fight, you've just got more to pull off now and your windows of oppertunity will be come smaller.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 02:47:25 AM by mechanic »
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline DamnedRen

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
scissors
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2005, 09:28:26 AM »
Marines used say a scissors was a race to a wall way out in front of your plane. The guy that hits the wall first loses. :D


Without getting into the rolling scissors the one thing you want to do is make sure you stay "out of plane" with the other guy. If his wings match the same plane as your wings then he is going to have a shot so you need to be looking at him as you perform scissors moves.

Flat scissors as TC mentioned above tend to be a last ditch effort for a lot of folks just trying to stay alive.

Defeating scissors maneuvers is fairly easy to do.

A rolling scissors is an aggressive move used to turn the fight around.

Offline JB73

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8780
scissors
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2005, 10:20:27 AM »
dont forget the variation of the rolling scissors, the verticle scissors.

instead of a wall in front, the ground is the stop point

i think you know what im saying, im just bad at translating BFM / ACM into text
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline pellik

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 500
scissors
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2005, 11:27:30 AM »
If your plane as a big roll rate advantage and high drag in a turn, such as a 190, the flat scissors is a good and under-rated defensive move. Try to start it early to show your intentions at a flat scissors, as this move is best if they try to counter it.

At about d800 I'll start with small quick cuts to bleed E and prevent the snipers from getting a good shot. I'll stay full throttle through this part as I need to keep a little E to burn for a high AoT when things get closer. These scissors are only maybe 1.5 seconds a side. Your opponent is probably keeping his E to close in through these early parts, since 190s are usually so fast they don't usually want to cut throttle until they are well into range for thier guns solution.

When they start getting to d400 that's when the real fun of the flat scissors starts. I have three goals here. First and foremost is bullet dodging. Even in a flat scissors I don't keep entierly flat. Try to judge where your opponents nose is on each pass and pull away from it. If he's a little nose high I'll keep myself a few degrees below the horizon to get under his guns. If he's in a bit of a dive I'll try to get a little above him.

There are two basic situations at this point depending on the style of my opponent. Either he's flying straight and only banking a little while dumping as much E as he can to stay back, or he's trying to scissor with me. The good ones let me do all the work and aim for the crossing shots while flying reasonably straight. They will still bank their wings toward me in case I try to break out, but they arn't turning, just bleeding E with flaps, gear, and anything else they can find.


The bad ones keep rolling toward me and trying to turnfight my scissors. The reason this is bad is that my supperior rolling plane is spending much longer in the actual turns then their plane, so I'm going to get more control over their E state. Because they are turning they arn't going to cut throttle as well as the waiters (takes E to turn, so turnfighters keep the engine going), so I get to control their E state by determining when they turn and when they fly level. The more I cross em the more they are in level flight, keep it up and I'll get the overshoot and scissor behind em pretty quick.

Beating the good ones requires that I watch for one of two vulnerabilities in their fight. If I can get them to stay low on a pass where I go extra high, creating some verticle seperation as well as getting them a little faster then me, I can probably cut throttle and pull right down into em for the reverse. This is the basic verticle seperation reversal. If they don't give me seperation I'll have to press for a pure overshoot. All I can say about doing this is I transpose into a rolling scissors when they get very close and I look for them to get get too far ahead to cleanly pull up onto my six, then I cut throttle. There are many types of rolling scissors, but the only ones 190s are good for are the locked ones. If they give me AoT for a stalling roll I'll stay on the bottom and start to run. If they are in a flapper I can probably get enough E to achieve seperation for a new reversal merge. If they get flaps up really fast I just transpose back into a flat scissors.

There's one more outside chance counter to watch for, but I didn't mention it earlier as it's not specifically related to the flat scissors. Many people will try for high barrel rolls or yo-yos to stay behind without shedding all their E. Oddly enough while the high yo-yo is a counter to an early flat turn, a flat turn or low yo-yo (depending on your E state) are the counters to an early high yo-yo. I just turn clean and pull verticle when they start getting over the top. The closer to nose to nose I can get from the flat turn the more effective the counter. When I'm either most of the way around on them or when they are topping out and getting ready to dive back at me I pull up and either shoot up past their nose if they are nose up or pull up under them if they are nose down. This works like a stallfighter technique. I pull up to start my stall later then theirs, while they are forced nose down because they bled all their juice in the pre-mature verticle move. As long as I clear their lfr I get a stalling snapshot on the overshoot no matter what they do. One successful reversal is all I need, so that's as far as I'll take the high yo-yo scenario.


Anyway, I hope you can visualize this enough to start playing with the flat scissors. It's a fun game that pretty much nobody plays anymore.

-p.

Offline mechanic

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11307
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.