Author Topic: a new chapter in mankind history has begun (Read 1206 times)

storm · « **on:** September 12, 2001, 04:54:00 AM »

my hear goes out to all the american involved in this horrible tragedy......i cant even find words in my vocabulary to describe what happened.

the world will never be the same from today onwards

But with all the grief and rage out there i
really strongly hope that all the lives lost yesterday will not be lost in vain.

Lives from lots of natinalities were lost for sure as the WTC housed companies from all the world.This is a war declaration against everyone that believes in freedom!!

Now the fast solution would be to wipe out the responsible nation that harbours the culprits.But that IMHO would just spark more hatred and more bloodshed in the future generations.

I would really wish the whole world community would come together and form a
huge massive military strenght and deploy on the ground..i mean every nation that says it stands behind america..then just comb the nation from S to N and from W to E and look into everyones pocket or even if needed up his ass.Find the culprits and
bring them to justice.Wipe out everyone who wants to stand in the way and warn them so.

If it turns out to be Afghanistan then just
look into every shrecking hole in the mountains for the last rat.Then get a moderate islamic country and make a marshall plan for that country to teach these maniacs that islam can be interpreted in many ways and that the radical approach just brings bloodshed and misery.

Well this might be a utopic view and strategically impossible to do..but when i think that we wanted to place a human on the moon and we made it makes me wonder if we all united couldnt make this happen.

just my humble 2 cents

storm

Jochen · « **Reply #1 on:** September 12, 2001, 06:41:00 AM »

Unfortunately massive armies do nothing in this kind of situation. US has the most modern and largest intelligence gathergin agency, army, air force and navy of the free world but did it help? No.

Only way to stop or atleast slow down the terrorism with violence is practically wipe out whole nationalities. I doubt and hope US will not lower to that level. One effective way would be small specialized groups attacking terrorists continuosly.

US are in deep toejame with this enemy and need to revenge. They have no insignia or uniform. He can blend to ordinary people. Only way to kill all of them is to kill everybody else. It is not going to happen.

Maverick · « **Reply #2 on:** September 12, 2001, 01:11:00 PM »

Jochen,

You mistated the situation. The enemy is in deep toejam with the US. Not the other way around. Once mobilized, this nation and it's people are capable of performing well above the level needed to get the job done. We may even be able to get other civilized nations to unite against a common foe in terrorism.

You (speaking metaphorically) can either help, hinder or get out of the way. Make a choice soon as time to decide will be short. Your loyalties will be remembered when you choose.

Mav

Voss · « **Reply #3 on:** September 12, 2001, 01:29:00 PM »

I don't care if he ordered the attack, or even if his compatriots had nothing to do with it. He's happy it happened so he deserves to die. If that means his country and their way of life enters into extinction, so be it. We have been appealing to this particular nation for years to end this type of barbarism. They have turned a deft ear to us, now it's time to return the favor. Terrorism will continue to escalate until we do something about it. If that means genocide, well it's not like we didn't try other means first.

storm · « **Reply #4 on:** September 12, 2001, 01:49:00 PM »

i understand your point jochen but if we continue to just pound them with specialist forces the problem will just remain the same.
Just the potential risk for even greater tragedies than the one yesterday, will be looming on the horizont.

Not only in America but anywhere where you can drink a coffee and read a free newspaper in peace.
For every terrorist you kill 3 or 4 more will spawn and take his place,and i dont even want to imagine what they might be capable of doing if they get hands on bio weapons or other vicious idea.
So the problem has to be eliminated and i'm more and more convinced that there will be swift fast and decisive action once the responsibles for this atrocity have been identified.
And the world will move as one i hope and not only the Americans

Sandman · « **Reply #5 on:** September 12, 2001, 06:32:00 PM »

The message was loud and clear. We will make no distinction between the terrorists and the countries that harbor them.

Already, you can see a change. Hell, even Kaddafi (sp?) in Lybia has denounced the attack as horrifying.

The Arab nations are fully aware that if they or any other nation harbors terrorists intent on attacking the U.S. their country and there very way of life are at risk.

We are in a different era. The U.S. has the power and the support of the world to act unilaterally against this threat.

"You tell him I'm coming! And hell's coming with me!" - Wyatt Earp

Jochen · « **Reply #6 on:** September 13, 2001, 03:24:00 AM »

I dont think some of you guys understand what has just happened.

War has changed it's shape forever. You don't anymore need armies, navies or bombers to cause catastrophical damage. Neither do those prevent this kind of actions.

Missile shield is complete waste of money. For terrorists its far easier to hijack few commercial jets than acquire intercontinental ballistic missile with nuclear warhead.

Group that attacked US was a small one. Their support organization is not much bigger. What good are those tanks, bombers and carriers do against them? Nothing, they are in that sense useless. Terrorists do not respect regular armies.

Regular armies are big and cumbersome, they can be evaded easily.

Sure, you can bomb shtie out of some countries but will it help, has it helped before? If you go to killing spree with arab civilians that have nothing to do with these actions, you only will cause same effect that was encountered in Vietnam. Invisible enemy that is ready to die for their cause.

There are two extremities dealing with this situation:

Gather intelligence and strike surgically to terrorists itself.

or

All out assault against whole nations killing great numbers of citizens without any guarantee of success.

Pepe · « **Reply #7 on:** September 13, 2001, 04:39:00 AM »

Jochen, let's put it in another way: we are ALL part of that army now. It's clear that we are all in the military for these beasts, it's clear that we are all legitimate targets.

Unfortunately we have to shift our productive resources from peace time to war time. While the respective governments have the collective duty to plan for the needed changes to happen, we have all the individual responsibility of doing our maximum to contribute to the general effort.

I feel myself not able to serve as an ordinary soldier. I would do my best if such moment arrives. I will definitely do it when on my job. If thanks to my job my government can spend a single additional dollar against them, that will be my contribution.

We can't locate our enemy right now. It's got multiple hearts, multiple brains. We have to give it time, and trust the ones in charge will be wise enough to cut that heads in good shape and time. Our turn is to be in our posts, and make an effort as hard as we can.

It's true that a conventional strike with a conventional army it's not the global and ultimate solution. But you can't discard such strikes in certain circumstances/against certain countries/locations. That's why we all need conventional forces. That's why conventional forces are not enough, by far. Apart from strenght that means conventional forces, we have to be very smart. They are. And apart from physical strenght, we have a crucial need to be morally strong. They are as well. They are totally wrong in his morality, but they are strong. We have to be more, and our strength is that right and reason is on our side. Barbarism is in their.

I think it's absolutely right we won't publicly see most of the episodes of this war. Here lies the danger. We must not relax. We must remember each and every day. No spectacular actions will trigger our faith and resolution. That's also our part in the collective effort. Maintaining resolution. Supporting our governments. Trying each and every day to make at least a single useful things towards victory. We are in the army now. Believe it or not, want it or not. Them b*stards had chosen for us.

Maverick · « **Reply #8 on:** September 13, 2001, 03:04:00 PM »

Jochen,

You display a common falacious belief that there is security in the world. There are NO absolutes. There is NO SUCH THING as a perfect society, world or political concept. No Army, security system or intelligence agency acn protect its charge 100% of the time against 100% of the threats.

The argument that because the military and inteligence assets we have couldn't protect the WTC they are useless is pure drivel. (I had another word in mind, you figure it out.) That same argument has been used against seatbelts and helmets. Since they couldn't protect motorists from 100% of the injuries they were useless.

If a system protects against the majority of expected and legitimate threats, is it effective? If it protects against half, is it worthwhile? Is 50%, 75% or even 90% adequate for you? Is 0% somehow better than taking some action to prevent or deter a threat?

Nothing will work 100% of the time in 100% of the conditions. Realize that and deal with it.

If you want to be safe you are in the wrong universe. Everything can hurt you from your neighbor to your bathtub

to terrorists. Don't expect to be secure in this world, it won't happen.

Please consider what you write when you criticise those who do their damndest to protect you and fail because they are fallable and cannot forsee nor protect from every concievable and inconcievable threat.

Mav

Gunthr · « **Reply #9 on:** September 13, 2001, 03:22:00 PM »

President Ford tied the hands of the CIA when he signed the law forcing them to play nice and moral, outlawing assasinations and dealings with the criminal element.

Well, things just changed, and I've no doubt that the dogs of war will be unleashed now.

We've been too busy hunched over sattellite photos to put real people in deep cover, in the streets of Afganistan or Iraq.

Too concerned with justice to put a knife in the back of a traitor in a dark alley, and too clean to work with sewer scum.

Yes, this is a new day. Things are the way they are, and we have to adapt for the sake of the innocents....

miko2d · « **Reply #10 on:** September 13, 2001, 05:13:00 PM »

US and European community together do not have an army numerous enough to occupy Afghanistan. May be if russians contributed a few millions...

The Israeli way of selectively killing known terrorists results in fewer losses and is much easier on civillians.

miko

Staga · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2001, 05:40:00 PM »

Yeah, who needs courts anyway...

Gunthr · « **Reply #12 on:** September 13, 2001, 08:34:00 PM »

Exactly. I don't think Finnish soldiers issued the enemy a summons to appear in court when they encountered him in WWII. This is the same.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #13 on:** September 13, 2001, 08:41:00 PM »

Courts?! Are you insane?

This is not a legal matter.

You know what the difference between this and other terrorists acts were?

There were no demands. They boarded these aircraft with the intent of turning them into giant bombs with wings.

I don't recall the lawyers flying over Berlin in '44 dropping suppenas.

The only difference between what initiated getting the US into WWII and this (aside from the targets and factions involved) is that we have a faceless enemy- but we are well on our way to putting a face on this enemy.

He has an army willing to sacrifice their lives for him, as was demonstrated only 2 days ago.

An army, you do not take an ARMY to court. They will not come to court, they will kill us and themselves before they come to court.

Think sensibly, these people are not rational- they have their sights set on killing themselves and taking a couple hundred people with them.
-SW

Nash · « **Reply #14 on:** September 13, 2001, 10:11:00 PM »

"I don't recall the lawyers flying over Berlin in '44 dropping suppenas." - SWulfe

Lol!

Yer exactly right imho... when dealing with these types of people it is a ways removed from the "civil" means we'd *like* to be able to employ. It's an altogether different beast, and the only way to stamp it out is to fight the kinds of battles that actually mean anything to them.

Remember when armies used to face off in nice neat lines, advancing towards eachother with bayonets attached? How noble and honourable... But my god... the look on some poor General's face when he encountered guerilla tactics for the first time...

It's the same thing... a different kind of fight altogether. In order to have any success, the western world better summon the cajones to be able to meet this kind of enemy in head-on. And I think that button has been sufficiently pushed. Extradition negotiations with the likes of Qadhafi over the span of decades don't seem to be in the cards this time.