Author Topic: Flaps, flaps, & flaps.  (Read 13153 times)

Offline agent 009

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2005, 03:04:42 AM »
Well, I guess I take a different view. Mustang pilots would drop flaps to get a bead on a 109, but one could also do it to get one off one's tail.

Weissenberger is reported to have dropped 28 allied machines in 3 weeks at invasion front. he was very agressive & survived war. Beginners different story. Galland also employed the scatter the flock tactic. he explained; when one finds oneself in a bad position, it is better to attack.  one's position often changes in one's favor.

Being conservative & diving away instead of attacking often had disastrous results for LF pilots late in war as they lost dive advantage when 47 & Stang arrived.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2005, 03:20:10 AM »
So how many such 'aces' do you think served in the war, as compared to the 'norm'? Picking up an ace list is a moot point since they hardly ever represent what is typical and likely considering the conditions of war. It's basically like picking up a few AH MA aces and explaining ACM or MA combat around them, except they consist only about 5% of the entire MA population.


 Besides,

 Being "aggressive" does not necessarily mean always going into hard-boiled, all-out combat, and being "conservative" does not necessarily mean just diving away.

 Grislawski or Hartmann, Barkhorn could be explained as 'aggressive' in the sense they would deal with enemy threat with utmost precision, except they were basically 'conservative' in choosing their battles, and most importantly, had a clear grasp of the average skill level of their flight and wingmen. In this sense they were 'conservative' and 'careful'.

 However, people like Nowotny or Marseilles can be easily identifed as being 'aggressive' in that they seemed to relish the aspects of combat and individual feats of maneuvering and fighting, often under hard-pressed conditions and still winning the day. While they weren't shot down, both of them did not survive the war.
 
 Obviously, as the case here is using the example of the P-38 which combat flaps were restricted to under 250mph, I used the word 'aggressive' to explain people who like flying at the edge of stall and scissoring and rolling in the midst of enemy planes in a heated knife fight.

Offline niklas

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« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2005, 04:25:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

 Wick(engaged multiple bandits recklessly)
 Marseilles(test flight accident, suspicions of tampering with the G-2 he was scheduled to fly in)
 Nowotny(chased down and shot down in a 262)
 Fadayev(engaged multiple Germans)
 McGuire(bad/reckless judgement).. all killed in combat.


Marseille did die afaik the first flight in his new G2 when his engine began to smoke and he bailed out. No enemies involved at all.

niklas

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2005, 04:37:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Oh I don't doubt some did.



It was done by more than just "some".  After all, there was a reason why Fowler flaps were put in the plane in the first place.  Even McGuire's tactical manual talks about using flaps and the flight training film for the P-38 talks about the use of the combat flaps.  So, despite what you think, using flaps to aid in the maneuvering of the P-38 was a common practice used by the majority of the P-38 pilots in all theaters of operation.

I wonder what it is that gets you so riled up when you see "flaps" and "P-38s" in the same sentence?



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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2005, 04:43:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by niklas
Marseille did die afaik the first flight in his new G2 when his engine began to smoke and he bailed out. No enemies involved at all.

niklas



thinks so, smoke in cockpit and bailed out only to fall face first into the ground.  I guess he had parachute problems, crappy way to go. I wonder if anyone else shot down 8 planes in 10 minutes like he did once?


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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2005, 04:47:02 AM »
Quote
what does Lockheed's instructions say abut flap usage?



Can't find the page.  It came out of Lockheed's monthly P38 magazine.  Seems the website took it down.

It is mentioned in the film:

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P38.html

The instructions follow what Kweassa, dtango, and the Luftwaffe pilots I have interviewed say about flaps.

They are a temporary measure to gain angles and not a crutch to turn you fighter  into a zero.

Lockheed warned that flap usage would rob the A/C of speed. Prolonged usage had a detrimental effect on turn performance.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: April 26, 2005, 04:51:47 AM by Crumpp »

Offline agent 009

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« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2005, 05:55:45 AM »
Well here's a turn question. Which would outturn which betwen a Yak 3 & a Tony. I know, hard to figure. below 350, the Tony could outturn MK 9 Spit.

Offline SirLoin

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« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2005, 09:57:59 AM »
I remember talking to a p51 vet and he said nont once did he drop flaps(even 1 notch) for a better turn in combat.
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2005, 11:08:35 AM »
Quote
Marseille did die afaik the first flight in his new G2 when his engine began to smoke and he bailed out. No enemies involved at all.


 I seem to recall reading about a theory that Marseilles probably requested the mechanics to alter the engine settings to achieve full emergency power, and that went bad during his test flight, which caused the engine troubles. Not sure where I read that though.

Quote
It was done by more than just "some". After all, there was a reason why Fowler flaps were put in the plane in the first place.


 No doubt Fowler types are more efficient than others methods, but there could be a number of reasons to put in a Fowler type flaps than just about combat.

 ..........

Quote
Even McGuire's tactical manual talks about using flaps and the flight training film for the P-38 talks about the use of the combat flaps. So, despite what you think, using flaps to aid in the maneuvering of the P-38 was a common practice used by the majority of the P-38 pilots in all theaters of operation.


 This is what intrigues me most, because I think it has a lot to do with what kind of "leaders" are present at that specific theater. Top aces are influential people and often become a role-model as well as a mentor in the way they share their wisdom and practice among the rookie pilots.

 Among all the theaters and airforces that served in WW2, there's not a single reference that states flap usage was a common practice, or, should be encouraged in combat.

 P-38s were not the only planes installed with Fowlers. The Fowlers on the P-38 also weren't necessarily the most efficient use of Fowlers in fighter planes. The P-47s also had Fowlers, which could certainly help against the usually more agile Luftwaffe planes. The Ki-84 probably had the best designed Fowlers to ever be installed on a WW2 fighter plane.

 And yet the notations of flap usage is common only among P-38 pilots, or at least, is claimed to be so.

 Why is that?

 There could be a number of possible reasons;

1) All of the other pilots of other airforces in other theaters, weren't as skilled as P-38 aces

2) The P-38 was the only unique plane that could utilize such use of flaps during combat

3) There was something about the PTO conditions which allowed far more aggressive usage of flaps, than compared to the Med, ETO, or the Eastern Front.
 
 IMO 1) and 2) is both highly unlikely, and it would be delusional for anyone to claim so. The only possible explanation lies in 3).

 One must look at the general PTO conditions where aerial opposition was practically decimated since the great counter offensive of '42, and countless numbers of Japanese veterans were lost. All of the major carriers were sank, and the aerial power the Japanese could wield were to be split apart and straggled along the lines of the numerous islands scattered apart in the Pacific.

  Not to mention the fact that unlike in any other theaters of the war, the Japanese planes were more often than not clearly overmatched by the USN/USMC planes in so many ways.

 It is frankly not much of a surprise, that a group of pilots with superior skills and superior planes, superior numbers and superior logistics, would quickly become more belligerant and aggressive than any other theater in the world.

 Again, no derogatory intent towards the PTO pilots of the war, but the USN or USMC definately was not in such hectic conditions as compared to the RAF in 1940, or the daylight bombing raids of the USAAF(AAC) in '43~'44, or the deadly tangles between the Luftwaffe and the VVS in the Eastern Front throughout the war.

 There are many famed and noted aces among American pilots. Some like Johnson, were especially noted for their individual prowess. And yet, the description of their combat practices is hardly anything like the how Bong or McGuire would have fought. In a sense it is much more team oriented, conservative, careful, and less 'exciting', when compared to reading how aggressively McGuire or Bong would fight.

 This is probably because the planes they were flying were different, but also because the opposition they were facing were different as well. And perhaps, IMO, this is why the PTO pilots have that distinct belligerant, swash-buckling aura as compared to their counterparts in the ETO.

 As long as that particular environmental conditions are at work, the distinct aggressive style of fighting which would typically be a lot more 'personal' than compared to the P-51s or P-47s in the ETO, would certainly work well.

 IMO the influence of the P-38 aces in the PTO, is what got the P-38 pilots in the practice of using flaps a lot more than other airforces. And also the fact that they could still get away with it more often than not, since they were in so much better planes. Fighting Tonys or Zeros in P-38Gs and Js, can't be possibly as difficult as having to fight 190s or 109s in P-47s, especially when the Luftwaffe was still maintaining its qulaity of pilots to a high level.

 In the end, despite numerous excuses given to the P-38, the USAAF in the ETO just gave up on the P-38s. Sure, you could argue that the ETO pilots were dumb, and did not know how to use the P-38s as well as PTO pilots. But in the end, if a certain majority of pilots find it difficult to use it under certain conditions, then that effectively represants the view of the whole theater.

The P-38s were driven out. The P-51Ds came in.

 To quote Rau, "not every pilot can fly like Ben Kelsey", and if they had to fly like Kelsey to prove its worth under ETO conditions, then its certainly not a plane that is 'easy to handle', especially when you look at this matter from the perspective of average/normal pilots, not from the shoes of the belligerant and confident few.


 .........


Quote
I wonder what it is that gets you so riled up when you see "flaps" and "P-38s" in the same sentence?


 Quite simple, really. Because the P-38 fanboys are the only guys arguing that their plane is special when it comes to 'flap usage', and it has been done injustice in terms of flap usage in AH.

 My take is, nothing's special. Neither the P-38 nor its flaps.

 As a casual reminder to the readers, for any reason if a flame war erupts around the flap issue, "it wasn't me who started to get personal."
« Last Edit: April 26, 2005, 11:12:15 AM by Kweassa »

Offline agent 009

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« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2005, 01:32:49 PM »
Regading 38 being replaced in ETO. it cost 78.000 $ to make vs 54.000$ for Mustang. Not exact amounts but you get the drift. This was one reason it was replaced. Also range issue.

Offline niklas

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« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2005, 02:22:11 PM »
Fowlers offers maybe the highest lift when fully deployed, but they have for manoevering three drawbacks:
1) They open a gap, and a slotted flap always has higher drag than a simple flap (P-51 flaps imo had a kind of membran at the flap tip that prevented air flow between the upper and lower surface around the flap tip)
2) they decrease aspect ratio
3) they move the center of lift backward, what has to be compensated by a larger elevator deflection (because the COG to COL position now gives a nose down moment) what in turn means more drag

So while they offer afaik most lift for landing itīs imo doubtable that their benefit at manoevering speeds was superior to normal flap design.

niklas

Offline humble

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« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2005, 03:54:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by agent 009
Well here's a turn question. Which would outturn which betwen a Yak 3 & a Tony. I know, hard to figure. below 350, the Tony could outturn MK 9 Spit.


And your basing this on what data? For 1 thing the tony only goes 350 give or take:). The Yak 3 was a low alt bird so its performance will alter with alt. It's also a 9/44 bird where as the ki-61 enter service in 6/43. As for the Ki-61 out turning the spit IX...1st what spit IX at what alt. All in all I'd say the spitIX was double superior to the Ki-61...

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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2005, 04:09:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa





 IMO the influence of the P-38 aces in the PTO, is what got the P-38 pilots in the practice of using flaps a lot more than other airforces. And also the fact that they could still get away with it more often than not, since they were in so much better planes. Fighting Tonys or Zeros in P-38Gs and Js, can't be possibly as difficult as having to fight 190s or 109s in P-47s, especially when the Luftwaffe was still maintaining its qulaity of pilots to a high level.

 In the end, despite numerous excuses given to the P-38, the USAAF in the ETO just gave up on the P-38s. Sure, you could argue that the ETO pilots were dumb, and did not know how to use the P-38s as well as PTO pilots. But in the end, if a certain majority of pilots find it difficult to use it under certain conditions, then that effectively represants the view of the whole theater.


 Quite simple, really. Because the P-38 fanboys are the only guys arguing that their plane is special when it comes to 'flap usage', and it has been done injustice in terms of flap usage in AH.

 My take is, nothing's special. Neither the P-38 nor its flaps.

 As a casual reminder to the readers, for any reason if a flame war erupts around the flap issue, "it wasn't me who started to get personal."



Actually, those USAAC pilots that went from the PTO to the ETO found fighting the Germans to be less difficult than the Japanese.  One well known US ace had an average performance in the PTO but when he got transfered over to the ETO soon became an ace.  P-38 pilots that got transfered from the PTO to P-38 units in the Med, found that they could finally fight a foe they could maneuver with.  A lot of RAF and Commonwealth pilots that fought in the Pacific regarded the Japanese to be more of a "dogfighter" than the Germans.

The P-38 was also flying in the PTO in '42 and those P-38 units that operated near New Guinea faced some of the best the Japanese had over Rabaul and those that operated in the CBI faced some more battle hardened and experienced Japanese pilots over Rangoon.  So the notion that the P-38 entered the PTO while the cream of the Japanese pilots were already dead is a myth.


Show me where in this thread where I mention anything other than correcting you saying that using flaps in combat situations was common and done by most P-38 pilots?  

Any why bring up the part about personal attacks?  I don't recall any personal attacks in this thread.  


ack-ack
« Last Edit: April 26, 2005, 04:19:07 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline humble

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« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2005, 04:18:07 PM »
My understanding is that japanese pilots did not have a formal wingman structure like other air forces and had minimum coordination in the air. They viewed air combat very much in the samori (sp?) tradition. So they where very good pilots individually and very skilled in turning ACM...however really didnt have proper training & equipment to fight the US. Kind of like the scene in indiana jones where the guy pulls the sword....basically bringing a zeke to a mid 44 dogfight was bringing a knife to the OK corral:)

I think the germans were probably much less skilled as pilots then the japanese...but better tactically. Since the US had tactics equal or better then the germans the guys coming from the PTO had no problem converting chances to kills...where in the PTO the zekes and franks often wiggled out of the noose...

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Offline Murdr

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« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2005, 06:57:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Can't find the page.  It came out of Lockheed's monthly P38 magazine.  Seems the website took it down.


It is in Issue 6.  

Quote
Lockheed warned that flap usage would rob the A/C of speed. Prolonged usage had a detrimental effect on turn performance.
Sentence one is correct.  Sentence two is a mischaracterization.  I can see now the sencence you will snip out of the magazine to support what you said, but if you read the two paragraphs as a whole it is obvious the test pilot is refering to the loss of maneuvering options with the loss of speed, and not that the 38 has problems turning at low speeds.  The 479th site has a link to Hanger Flying on the front page.