Deflection skills or ACM?

[Hoarach]

I think able to have good gunnery skills can help when in a fight with someone.  Yea when up real close its pretty hard to miss.  But when you have to shoot a 70 degree angle or more, its good to have good gunnery because you wouldnt have to end up in a turn fight or get bounced by finishing the enemy plane off.  

Im happy about having good gunnery because with practice, I am able to hit enemy planes 800-1000 out with the P38 because I have found how high I need which forces the enemy plane to move and ends up blowing his E so I can finish him off or it damages the plane enough that it takes off a wing or something forcing the plane to go down.


Hoarach

[lasersailor184]

2 Pings dont make 2 "solid hits" for starters.

I apologize.  3 near hits and 1 solid hit.  It was solid enough to knock parts off.

Almost every single plane Nomak went up against is more maneuverable then the G6.  All they had to do was throttle back when dropping in on his six and he would have been toast.


I play as Punishr.

[bustr]

I started flying the spit5 into furballs and against YUCCA in the DA to hone my snap shots and ACM. YUCCA won't give me an inch to breath and we all know how furballs are. Ive reached the point where I shoot YUCCA down now and again and even lasted more than 1 minute with Hemp in the DA.

By flying slower and closer I started seeing how bad my gunnery was overall. By being slower I am able to see the target solutions. It's been helping with my P47 gunnery, since in a jug things happen a bit faster. I mapped the zoom key to my hat switch and zoom in slightly now just before gun solution range. Thats been helping to.

[jaxxo]

i fart around shooting tree branches and barns alot..not sure what my gunnery really is like in terms of hit percentage lol..can always get better though. as for dead 6 shots, nose mounted cannons seem to do just fine..Getting in a plane with a good gun platform (corsair) helps to learn, and setting up the shot with a steady hand is key.

[Morpheus]

Im surprised that you said this now after knowing who you are in game.

All nomak was doing was predicting the path of the nme plane and taking his own, shorter "path" to get a good angle for a good shot.

I say "all nomak was doing" as if it is an easy thing. Its not, it takes alot of practice and experience to be able to do it and do it well enough to make it count... As Nomak did.  Its also about  taking a chance but the odds of his chance taking and reactions to the nme plane are more and more in his favor due to his experience.

There's always a little bit of luck in a fight. You know that as well as I do. Regardless of getting pinged, taking hits or winning, there's some luck in it all.

No one knows for sure where a plane is going to be. But taking a chance and betting on his flight path opens the opportunity up for angles, angles which may or may not allow for a shot. Thats the luck of it.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Nomak, I'm impressed.  Not because of your gunnery skills, but because of how damn lucky you are.


I think I counted 2 enemies getting solid hits on you.  Another 2 were solidly on your tail.  Had anyone of them had the brains to only chop throttle 10-15%, you would have eaten it.

I didnt watch the film, but that's the attitude I like to see     Over the past 10 years, Ive probably pulled the same old evasives and table turning maneuvers ad nausium.  When I get a response on the open channel about "lucky" this and that, I just smile.  They didnt learn a damn thing which means the same old tired tactics will work aginst them next time.  Not much luck involved if things happened the way you planned them.  When things dont happen the way you plan, and you sucessfully adjust, that's skill.

[Morpheus]

Drex where's your sig at?

That summed up "luck" pretty dam good if you ask me.

[Nomak]

Here ya go "Great flyer"

"Luck is when preparation and opportunity meet."

[lasersailor184]

Luck is when the guy behind the other stick sucks.

[Hornet]

Shaw comes down pretty clearly on the side of shooting ability. Of particular interest are the quotes on shooting from the WW1 aces like Billy Bishop, functioning in that close range, low wing loaded environment -- they ranked marksmanship as king, acm secondary.

In AH I do believe snapshots are the big momentum swings in fights, either you hit for damage that alters performance, or you miss and sacrifice angles.  

Someone once pointed out drex's low hit % and he commented he hits the ones that counts. I always thought that was good stuff because acm aside, especially in bad odds, as those angles close out there are some shots that *must* kill or do damage or you will die.

[PK1Mw]

For me, the gunnery was a little more difficult to learn coming from AW into AH. Now I don't hit 15% like some do, but if can stay between 9 - 12% pretty steadily. With my flying the A8 and turning it with anything and everything, I had to get used to snapshots. Cuz sometimes thats all you'll get. Leading kind of fell into place because in AW you could hit control + s or something like that, and it would take the gunsite away. That's how I flew, the site got in the way. But I also think the type of plane you fly also affects the hit %. You get a plane with big slow firing guns compared to a 51 with smaller, faster firing, you'll tend to hit better with the tiffy. At least I do anyway.

[Zazen13]

I love this debate, always have. The key to this debate is rather simple, it's the third factor of time. Obviously, flying skill and gunnery are both extremely important. As some have alluded to having good flying skill without good gunnery means you must manuever into a sure-shot position, this takes time and often an intrinsic turning advantage plane vs. plane (you will notice alot of good sticks with bad gunnery fly Spit5's or Niki's for this very reason). However, if you have good gunnery without good flying skill you can successfully shoot at even terrible angles, this does not require alot of time, much flying ability or a particular dominating aircraft flight characteristic.

In a 1 vs 1 duelling situation you have all the time in the world to work an opponent into a sure-fire position with flying skill alone and enjoy much success. In the typical MA furball  environment you do not have that time typically. Spend even a few seconds on a target and you are in dire danger of getting your arse blown off.  It is for this reason, in the MA at least, excellent gunnery is of premier importance.

I'm sure many of you have been in the situation where you know you have an opponent out-skilled but he has a major E advantage affording you only the briefest high deflection snap-shots. Eventually in this situation you can work down his E advantage with flying skill, but this will take alot of time, therefore putting you at great risk from his friends. With great gunnery, however, all you need to do is peg him on one of those brief snap-shot opportunities and it's over.

I don't agree that great gunnery can be taught per se. I think to a certain point practice and experience can improve your gunnery but nowhere near the level of great or even good if it was bad to begin with. Some people just have an innate 'feel' for deflection. AW back in 1991 was the first flight sim I had ever played, right from day 1 I had great gunnery and a great sense of deflection with no practice or experience of any kind. My flying ability sucked as you would imagine but I still enjoyed alot of success even when compared to much more experienced players. My flying improved dramatically with experience and practice over time, my gunnery more or less stayed at the same level even after years and years of experience and practice. I'm sure many can relate the same subjective experience. This phenomena was noted in real life as well, some people were just born good shots, no amount of drogue shooting made the terrible shots anywhere near as good as the innately good shots who never had or needed any practice.

So, it's not that gunnery is more important necessarily than flying skill, both are equally important in the big picture. But, in the typical MA environment great gunnery will provide you with greater and more consistant success than flying ability in the relative absence of good gunnery all other factors being equal.

Zazen

[pellik]

I'd rather be able to fly well then shoot well. Consitant good flying will wear down your opponents eventually, so you'll still get the kills. But you'll also have options. Good gunnery isn't going to save you from a higher or faster con. It isn't going to clear your 6. All its going to do is let you cherry-pick and punk, which get old fast.

-p.

[pellik]

Originally posted by Edbert
Well, now that Levi has joined the thread maybe he can tell us how he makes unbelievable snapshots when the con is out of sight, far under his nose. I know you have to anticipate, but he seems to seldom miss. I have watched his films and it is downright scary!

The trick to Levi is that if you're flying like an Ace when he can see you, do something stupitarded the instant he pulls for a shot.

[pellik]

Originally posted by Nomak
Here ya go "Great flyer"

"Luck is when preparation and opportunity meet."

Luck is when good pilots like Nomak find me while they are flying drunk.