Author Topic: Thoughts on the 109F4 (Read 2381 times)

humble · « **Reply #45 on:** April 27, 2005, 12:24:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Grits
The G-2 can handle the Spit V easily IMO, its climb rate is around 800+fpm better at most altitudes and it holds a 27mph speed advantage on the deck.

Avoid it...or kill it. Truthfully I dont think any plane in the set handles a spit V easily. The G2 is much less stable...its going to bleed E compared to the spit V. It doesnt have the raw power the G10 does to dominate the verticals completely. The G-2 is myfavorite 109 by far...but I think the spit V still has an edge....however the G2 does have a greater ability to pick the fight or deny engagement. However it has the same guns ballistics and less pure turn capability...so in my mind it has an even lower hit probability...maybe the potato gun option is a +...least ifyouhit the sucker it'll go boom:)

Krusty · « **Reply #46 on:** April 27, 2005, 12:34:10 PM »

You're thinking of the G-6, which is totally in a different class. The G-2 is more like the F-4 in handling, but with more raw power (better speed/climb) and only slightly worse handling (I barely notice it, but I notice it).

EDIT: I say you're thinking of the G-6 because the G-2 doesn't have the 30mm option. It has same armament as F-4, 1 MG151/20 in the nose and 2 peashooters, optional gondolas, and rack mounted stuff.

soda72 · « **Reply #47 on:** April 27, 2005, 12:46:58 PM »

http://www.geocities.com/s0da72/

At one point I was gathering up plane data, but I hate doing that since it takes forever... But I did gather some data on the 109f and spitI...

You'll need sun's JRE 1.4.0 higher installed to view/use it.

Grits · « **Reply #48 on:** April 27, 2005, 01:29:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
Avoid it...or kill it. Truthfully I dont think any plane in the set handles a spit V easily. The G2 is much less stable...its going to bleed E compared to the spit V. It doesnt have the raw power the G10 does to dominate the verticals completely.

OK, you are right, what I should have said is at least the G-2 has something to work with, where the F-4 doesnt really.

humble · « **Reply #49 on:** April 27, 2005, 01:48:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
You're thinking of the G-6, which is totally in a different class. The G-2 is more like the F-4 in handling, but with more raw power (better speed/climb) and only slightly worse handling (I barely notice it, but I notice it).

EDIT: I say you're thinking of the G-6 because the G-2 doesn't have the 30mm option. It has same armament as F-4, 1 MG151/20 in the nose and 2 peashooters, optional gondolas, and rack mounted stuff.

Actually was thinking of the G-2...since I never use the potato gun I wasnt sure. Based on my F4 time I think the handling issue is moot. The F4 simply isnt gonna hang with the spitV so the G2 wont. The extra power will help but the G2 driver has to be a better stick by a pretty fair margin (I'll grap one in Da later and double check). I simply dont think the 109 is docile enough...p40/205/ki-61 all much much better on the edge now IMO.

VWE · « **Reply #50 on:** April 27, 2005, 02:01:38 PM »

The Spit9 out climbs the 109F too, did it time and time again last night.

humble · « **Reply #51 on:** April 27, 2005, 02:30:39 PM »

I'd expect the spit IX to....

But not the V...way back when I was a trainer I got in a pissing match with one of the 109 drivers...we fought a true "bad blood" duel in the TA (back when it had real bullets before DA). Anyway I finally beat him after a suprisingly good fight. Basically he doubled me on the merge and proceeded to stomp on my head for a good 10 minutes. Only thing that saved me was I had 6 months of being a flying target drone and my evasives were really dialed in...caught him with a laser tag finally and let him bleed on out:).

He lost the fight but won the argument....109F certainly could handle a spitV 1 vs 1 back then. The V is now so close to the IX I think your really flying almost the same fight...so G6 is marginal even. I'd say the G10 controls fight totally...I'd prob take a G10 with gondolas vs a spitty 1 on 1 if I had to fly a 109...

Grits · « **Reply #52 on:** April 27, 2005, 02:47:40 PM »

Yup, its too bad too because like I said, the 109F vs Spit V matchup used to be the best in the game IMO. The G-2 though, is the next best 109 after the G-10 IMO, the G-6 is just a P-I-G pig. The G-2 at least has 7-800 fpm climb and nearly 30mph advantage to work with against the Spit V where the F-4 doesnt.

Like humble said, in the MA it comes more down to pilot skill, SA, and decision making ability, the 109F can perform very well against a whole aray of planes. In a duel format its got trouble.

humble · « **Reply #53 on:** April 27, 2005, 03:47:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Grits
Yup, its too bad too because like I said, the 109F vs Spit V matchup used to be the best in the game IMO. The G-2 though, is the next best 109 after the G-10 IMO, the G-6 is just a P-I-G pig. The G-2 at least has 7-800 fpm climb and nearly 30mph advantage to work with against the Spit V where the F-4 doesnt.

Like humble said, in the MA it comes more down to pilot skill, SA, and decision making ability, the 109F can perform very well against a whole aray of planes. In a duel format its got trouble.

I've got a clip from last night, me vs Skyrock again...F4 vs V...I thought I had him....he thought I had a chance and nada. He said he thought I flew a perfect merge (now you have to put that in context...to some guys his and my "perfect" may be corn chowder) and he just dragged me out behind the barn and bent me over the woodpile. Needless to say I put the POS in the barn and on with my bidness. Simply overmatched given my skill level...

bout 30 min later flew 1 vs Blixen (he in F6F me in spitcopter)...he totally waxed me on the merge...I couldnt even find the bastid:o ) and I still got him...

You can find a hundred places on this BBS I've said I dont care what you fly what alt you have you still have to come get me and kill me. I might have to put an asterick on that:)...the more I get back into the DA the more obvious the spits advantages are...now in the MA (or CT I'd guess) its less of an issue.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #54 on:** April 27, 2005, 05:18:25 PM »

Thought you gents might be interested in these numbers regarding the Spit LF V with +18 boost, vs the Spit FIX which is what the AH bird is supposed to be. These are real Spit numbers btw not the AH numbers.

Keep in mind the alts you are fighting in AH, which at least for me are under 10K

Spit LFV 4000 feet. Top speed 350 mph
Spit FIX 4000 feet Top Speed 326 mph

Spit LFV 8000 feet Top speed 348 mph
Spit FIX 8000 feet Top Speed 344 mph

Time to climb

Spit LFV 8000 feet 1 minute 45 seconds
Spit F IX 8000 feet 2 minutes 20 seconds.

Now note the LFIX numbers

Spit LFIX 4000 feet Top speed 364 mph
10000 feet (didnt note 8K) Top Speed 370 MPH

Now note the climb to 10K 2 minutes 6 seconds. The LFIX went to 10K faster then the FIX could get to 8K.

As you can see the FIX was not a better bird at the alts we fight in AH.

Bring the LFIX to AH and the Spit V will disappear, but for now the Spit LFV is by far the better bird for the AH Spit driver because we're not fighting at 25K

Peformance for the LFV fell off dramatically above 12K whereas the Spit FIX improved greatly.

SO! Lets get HTC to give us an LFIX and we can lose both the V and the FIX

Dan/CorkyJr

Redd · « **Reply #55 on:** April 27, 2005, 07:15:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by soda72
I always hate arguing whether or not it's model accurately, I just don't know enough about it to make that kind of claim. But IMO since the f4 isn't a good match anymore I would say leave the spitv out of CT setups. (or put it in the back fields like they did with this setup)

I'm not sure that's a great reason Soda, The KI-84 is a really tough match-up for both the f4U and the F6-F - does that mean it gets left out ?

soda72 · « **Reply #56 on:** April 27, 2005, 09:38:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Redd
I'm not sure that's a great reason Soda, The KI-84 is a really tough match-up for both the f4U and the F6-F - does that mean it gets left out ?

I would say it's more like "unreasonable match" up than a "tough match up"... With all things equal one mistake and the 109f is dead. This is also aggravated by low CT numbers. If the arena numbers are out of wack you can have 2 or more spits attacking a single 109f, which is way to much to handle for the avg pilot. No one is going to play target for the spitcopter for very long. Keep the plane sets competitive whether its historically accurate or not, if the g2, and g6 is available then having spitv is not as bad.... but only having the 109f agianst the new spitv is no fun at all...

Redd · « **Reply #57 on:** April 27, 2005, 11:46:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by soda72
I would say it's more like "unreasonable match" up than a "tough match up"... With all things equal one mistake and the 109f is dead. This is also aggravated by low CT numbers. If the arena numbers are out of wack you can have 2 or more spits attacking a single 109f, which is way to much to handle for the avg pilot. No one is going to play target for the spitcopter for very long. Keep the plane sets competitive whether its historically accurate or not, if the g2, and g6 is available then having spitv is not as bad.... but only having the 109f agianst the new spitv is no fun at all...

Ok - my last post on this

I still say the Spit V is no more of harder matchup for the german planes than the niki and probably the KI-84 is for the blue planes, in a 1-1 co-e coalt duelling type fight.

I think through a couple of fun sessions with TK and VWE , I may have been able to prove this point.

Anyway keep leaving it out , I don't give a toss ,

Grits · « **Reply #58 on:** April 28, 2005, 12:24:53 AM »

I agree with you Redd. I dont think it should be left out of any sets, I'm more lamenting the great fight that the Spit V vs 109F used to be more than anything else.

Krusty · « **Reply #59 on:** April 28, 2005, 12:33:08 AM »

Guppy we DON'T have the LFV in AH. We have a V that's got a rare later-war engine. There's a difference between LFV and FV. We just have a way-to-powerful FV. That probably out performs the LFV lol!!

Edit never mind you didn't say we HAD it. You were saying lose both spits for the LFIX. Mis-read your post.

I think we need more variety. The SpitV should be for early matches and the IX for mid war matches. Making just 1 would unbalance any CT setup you might ever want.