Author Topic: Space sailing  (Read 1395 times)

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Space sailing
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2005, 02:46:17 PM »
Nice thought, but the light pressure from other stars is...  not a factor.



BTW, here's a quote from a 1920 editorial about 'crackpot' Robert Goddard and his theories on rocket propulsion.
Quote
That Professor Goddard, with his "chair" in Clark College and the
countenancing of the Smithsonian Institution, does not know the
relation of action to reaction, and of the need to have something
better than a vacuum against which to react--to say that would be
absurd.  Of course he only seems to lack the knowledge ladled out
daily in high schools.

I feel it's appropriate, considering the conversation.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline SageFIN

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 176
Space sailing
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2005, 02:48:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Also, you could never travel to Venus or Murcury as you would always be traveling away from the sun and never be able to turn around.

If it works cool.  But I think they better get the trigectory right from the get go becouse I think it will only travel in a straight line.


The thing is that the matter in the solar system is orbiting the sun. Getting from place to place can be accomplished by adjusting this tangential velocity at the right times and by the right amounts, thus changing the orbit.

Getting closer to the sun would be accomplished by having the sail to such an angle towards the sun that this orbital velocity is reduced. There will always be a force component pointing outwards in a straight line from the sun, but it won't matter if it is small. If starting from a roughly circular orbit, this would lead to the orbit becoming more eccentric (thus making the craft pass closer to the sun at the perihelion point). Now one would furl the sail and open it again as the craft gets closer to the sun to kill off the accumulating velocity. If done right, it would result in a circular orbit around the sun, but this time with a smaller radius.

Obviously, because the sail is most probably difficult to handle, and because of the low thrust, it won't be so simple. Getting the desired orbit might require many complete revolutions or whatnot.

Offline Shamus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3585
Space sailing
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2005, 03:05:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Nice thought, but the light pressure from other stars is...  not a factor.

 


Why not..energy is energy no?

shamus
one of the cats

FSO Jagdgeschwader 11

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Space sailing
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2005, 03:09:53 PM »
Right, but the amount of actual energy reaching from other stars is many orders of magnitude weaker then anything local.  Inverse square law at work here.  Whereas you might be able to get good propulsion out of a sail the size of texas for within our solar system, it might need to be many times the diameter of the solar system to show an effect from the light from other stars.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
Space sailing
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2005, 03:32:24 PM »
How would it not be stopped half way to the next star by the light emmited from there? Or do you get it to max speed and then pull in the sails?

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Space sailing
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2005, 03:36:37 PM »
Either pull in the sails or turn it onits side so that it's slicing towards the target.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline ChickenHawk

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1010
Space sailing
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2005, 03:46:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SageFIN
The thing is that the matter in the solar system is orbiting the sun. Getting from place to place can be accomplished by adjusting this tangential velocity at the right times and by the right amounts, thus changing the orbit.

Getting closer to the sun would be accomplished by having the sail to such an angle towards the sun that this orbital velocity is reduced. There will always be a force component pointing outwards in a straight line from the sun, but it won't matter if it is small. If starting from a roughly circular orbit, this would lead to the orbit becoming more eccentric (thus making the craft pass closer to the sun at the perihelion point). Now one would furl the sail and open it again as the craft gets closer to the sun to kill off the accumulating velocity. If done right, it would result in a circular orbit around the sun, but this time with a smaller radius.

Obviously, because the sail is most probably difficult to handle, and because of the low thrust, it won't be so simple. Getting the desired orbit might require many complete revolutions or whatnot.


Of course your right Sage.  Given an orbit around the sun and using the suns gravity for travel toward it and the solar wind to travel away from it, the craft should be able to manouver about the solar system.  As you mentiond, it could take quite a while to make course changes though.

It should be interesting to see if the mirror sail will work or if a darker material would be needed as suggested by Thomas Gold.  Also should be interesting to see how big the sail will need to be.
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Space sailing
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2005, 04:53:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Its original forward moment will not stop fully
Wrong. It will not slow at all. As a matter of fact, it will continue accelerating as long as the sail is facing towards the sun at any degree.
Quote
you will add a new force that will act sideways. These forces combined will alter the crafts course - effectively turning it.

Just draw a two vector diagram, one representing the stong original forward vector an a new weaker (shorther) sideways vector. Whats the new direction made by the two?
The vectors will not dictate the direction of motion, but merely the acceleration. You know this... right?

This device, once going forward, will always maintain forward momentum. You can accelerate/decelerate the right/left sliding, but you can never eliminate the forward acceleration. Please note I'm not saying speed... if you cannot eliminate acceleration, you can never maintain or reduce speed in a frictionless environment (it will continue increasing in speed).

SageFIN... the article specifically mentions not having to use gravity to slow the device. That's what got me wondering how the hell they'd stop it.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 04:55:29 PM by Mini D »

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Space sailing
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2005, 05:01:38 PM »
Chairboy do you know what is that ?




It's a laser ;)  

I am wrong on the origin of your handle lasersailor184 ?

I remember those boat were though b*tch now that I'm old ,ugly and lazy I prefer drinking booze on the beach :D

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Space sailing
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2005, 05:44:13 PM »
Gsholz: Whenever I see the word 'only', I take it as a challenge.

1. Interstellar drag (both unassisted, and might be increased through use of magnetic fields)
2. Aerobraking
3. Tether
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline majic

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1538
Space sailing
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2005, 06:02:54 PM »
Why not fit it out with an ion engine for maneuvering and breaking?  How far has that technology come?

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Space sailing
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2005, 06:26:32 PM »
Well, the main attraction of solar sailing has been:
1. No power source required for propulsion.
2. No reaction mass needs to be expended.

The weigh penalties for these is suddenly reinstated when you add an ion drive, which requires both power and reaction mass.

Maybe there's still a net gain since you only need to carry a fraction of the reaction mass to get to a certain speed, but the math gets pretty wonky.  I can't really see the large scale usefulness of laser sails myself, but maybe I think small.

Personally, here's my thought on where this technology will go.  Instead of propelling spacecraft around the system, perhaps the reflective and lightweight sail material will be fashioned into large solar reflectors/focusers that can be used to melt asteroids to enable easy processing.  They could also be used in earth orbit to reflect extra sunlight into areas for the purpose of increasing crop yields/environmental sculpting.  Want a longer spring?  No problem, SolarCo can, for a modest fee, increase the sunshine in your country by 20%.

Heck, you could use the same sort of large scale solar reflectors to generate massive amounts of power too.  Build passenger liner sized closed cycle liquid sodium reactors in orbit.  Instead of using nuclear fission to heat the mix, use sunlight reflected from a 1,000 acre reflector that's affixed a mile or two away that will focus the sun on the heat exchangers.

Imagine huge farms of these balanced at L5 for constant sunshine, all microwaving their power to collection stations that hook into the grid.

Back to asteroids, there's also a proposal to use reflected sunlight to melt an asteroid, then release carefully sized packages of water that would flash to steam and carefully 'blow up' the asteroid like a balloon.  When cooled, the resulting structure could be pressurized and converted into a colony.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline hawker238

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1563
Space sailing
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2005, 09:03:08 PM »
How about for freight missions to Mars or an outer planet?


The ship unfurls its sail and slowly but surely gets out there.  Its large cargo is unloaded, then the sail is furled up and the lightweight craft is shot back towards our planet by rocket boosters.


This method is slow but cheap.  Might be useful when bulky items are needed with low time priorities (i.e. construction).

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Space sailing
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2005, 10:11:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Funny how a guy named Chairboy criticizes me when he forgets how much **** is just flowing around randomly in space.

Death by a million paper cuts.



you gotta admit this IS funny and ironic
Quote
It's awful funny that a fellow named 'lasersailor' would lack such basic comprehension of how laser sails are supposed to work...


BUT,

unless your in earth orbit the odds of you actually hitting somthing while traveling outside of orbit are slim to none.

Space is vast and empty the ods of two objects traveling on the same trajectory at the same time are astronomical (pun intended)

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Space sailing
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2005, 10:12:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Sure, there are other ways, but I was only considering non-assisted acceleration in vacuum. Of course, ramming a planet would stop the ship quite effectively. ;)


man they let you back in?   ;)