Author Topic: Space sailing  (Read 1347 times)

Offline Krusher

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Space sailing
« on: May 02, 2005, 09:15:06 AM »
This is very interesting work.  


SANDUSKY, Ohio (AP) -- Scientists working with a synthetic material 100-times thinner than a piece of paper are testing their theory that the sun can power interplanetary spacecraft. They believe that streams of solar energy particles called photons can push a giant, reflecting sail through space the way wind pushes sailboats across water.

The National Aeronautics and Space Administration has invested about $30 million in space-sail technology, something that existed solely in science-fiction novels a decade ago. Yet the reflective solar sail could power missions to the sun and beyond within a decade.

"It's OK to breathe on it and touch it," said David Murphy, of ATK Space Systems, showing off the sail.

ATK Space Systems, based in California, is one division of a $2.4 billion company that makes rocket motors, advanced weapons systems and ammunition for the military and the Department of Homeland Security. It has about 14,000 employees at operations in 23 states.

Last year it delivered 1.2 billion rounds of small-caliber ammunition to the Army.

The Space Systems division developed the solar sail, which is being tested in the world's largest vacuum chamber at the Cleveland-based NASA Glenn Research Center's Plum Brook Station in Sandusky. It has a space environment simulation chamber 100 feet in diameter and 122 feet high.

In that chamber, Murphy displayed four silvery, triangular pieces of sail stretched over four long booms, which form a square about 70 feet on each side. Murphy and others want to study how the sails will deploy and operate in a vacuum under various temperatures.

"We're going to cool it down and shake it out," Murphy said.

Just in case, the fabric, which resembles Mylar, has rip-stop threads to keep it from pulling apart when the chamber is closed and the air is pumped out.

"To get a lower pressure you'd have to go to space," said Edward Montgomery, an engineer from NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala.

The chamber has been used to test rocket components, radiators for the International Space Station and the crash bags that protected twin rovers when they landed on Mars last year.

The plasticlike fabric used to make the sails is a spinoff from technology used to develop spacecraft paint.

First missions - scientific payloads of a few hundred pounds - are likely to be to the inner planets, Venus and Mercury, and to the sun. But NASA scientists think the technology is a good bet for eventually powering spacecraft into deep space.

Since its fuel is free and doesn't have to be stored, a craft with solar sails would not have to slingshot around the moon or other planets for a gravity boost to reach distant destinations, as other craft do.

Craft propelled by solar sails could be launched on conventional rockets or released from space stations. In space, the force of sunlight would push the reflective sails, causing the craft to move, said NASA Marshall physicist Les Johnson.

The first sail tested in space will be about 130 feet on each side. Those on an actual mission could be twice as large.

While its thrust is low, it would be continuous so that the craft accelerates steadily, eventually reaching speeds of tens of thousands of miles an hour. Changing the sail's angle to the sun would allow the craft to slow down or speed up.

"Just by morphing its shape we can get it to turn," Montgomery said.

With the science worked out, Murphy said, it is now a matter of building larger sails.

"We have everything we need to do this," he said.

Offline Shamus

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Space sailing
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2005, 09:29:58 AM »
Larry Niven has been doing that for decades :)

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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2005, 09:44:50 AM »
"Renner, I intend to cut that probe loose from it's sail..."

;)
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Offline Krusher

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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2005, 09:51:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shamus
Larry Niven has been doing that for decades :)

shamus


sci-fi goes live !

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2005, 10:26:20 AM »
It's an interesting idea.


Up until something the size of a pebble hits it and ruins millions of dollars.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2005, 10:38:12 AM »
It's awful funny that a fellow named 'lasersailor' would lack such basic comprehension of how laser sails are supposed to work...  basic predictive design theory established 20+ years ago suggested that the structure be designed for distributed stress management so that if a portion of it was holed, it wouldn't kill the whole structure.

Secondly, the thinness of the material lessens the amount of mass that would be converted to energy on impact, meaning that it would be more likely to punch a tiny hole through it then, say, to go off like a stick of dynamite.
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Offline Mini D

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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2005, 10:48:10 AM »
I wonder how you could slow it by turning the sail. It's not like the photons would be going in a different direction. It's also not like a ship with a rudder and a hull... there is nothing to push from to force a change of direction.

Offline mechanic

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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2005, 10:56:34 AM »
"Last year it delivered 1.2 billion rounds of small-caliber ammunition to the Army."


hmmmmm, thats alot of dead Iraqis
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2005, 11:09:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
I wonder how you could slow it by turning the sail. It's not like the photons would be going in a different direction. It's also not like a ship with a rudder and a hull... there is nothing to push from to force a change of direction.


It's pushing off the photons of light, so getting it to turn is identical to getting it going forward - you cant have one working without the other working too.

Think of how a mirror works. If the mirror is perpendicular to a light source it will reflect a light back to the orgin. The sail is a mirror, it reflects the photons back towards the sun and the opposite reaction propells the spacecraft forward.  Now to turn, think of what happends when you place a mirror at a 45 degree angle, it deflects the photons of light to the side and not directly back to the source. So in the case of this sail, the opposite reaction would push the spcecraft to one side - effectively turning it.

This would slow the spacecraft too, or at lease lower its acelleration, because less energy is going into pushing it forward. You could do several turns in opposite directionms to slow the craft and wear down its kinetic energy.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 11:14:39 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2005, 11:12:49 AM »
Same as with flying.  When you turn, it's the horizontal component of lift that's at work.  Exactly the same with 'tacking' your solar sail.  It seems counterintuitive, but take a hose and spray water at something with a flat surface, then turn that object to 45 degrees and do it again.  As long as you track it accurately, you should see the object moving to one side.
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Offline Mini D

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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2005, 11:24:10 AM »
It is not the same as flying. There is no avialable source of friction for direction or acceleration.

The force of the photons is singularly directional. You can turn the sale, but you will need something acting as a rudder to actually change the direction. Also, a turn would begin with VERY slow acceleration just by changing the angle of incident and would do nothing to slow the craft.

It's just an odd concept without a source of friction to slow the vehicle. I don't know how you can convert the directional energy of a photon in such a manner as to reverse the direction of impact.

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2005, 11:26:23 AM »
For turning, I think the size of the sail is manipulated. One side gets smaller while the other size gets bigger or stays the same size. You have more energy accelerating it on one side than the other, this could turn it right?
-SW

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2005, 11:30:38 AM »
If you can turn it you can slow it down.

What happnds if you do 10 consecutive turns in opposite directions? You dont need friction to slow it, you just need to use up its energy in turns.  There is still mass, even without gravity, and getting this mass to change direction will use up energy and slow forward progress.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2005, 11:34:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
For turning, I think the size of the sail is manipulated. One side gets smaller while the other size gets bigger or stays the same size. You have more energy accelerating it on one side than the other, this could turn it right?
-SW


No, not in space. There is no friction to slow the side with less energy and more drag.  

The photons will siply bounce off and deliver proportional force to the surface area.

So reducing the sail in this way would simply slow the whole thing down.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 11:36:45 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2005, 11:41:06 AM »
I dunno grun. You'd have to do alot more than turn the sail, you'd have to completely alter the direction of the object. Given the low acceleration that is being done, I don't see this as an effective way to stop something given that it would be at full speed all the way through the turn untill you can get on a tangent with the path of the photons. Even then, you'd need to stop it in only one direction without accelerating it in another. Once again, there is no directional aspect to the body... using it as a sail will slow a sideways motion, but will push it away to do it.  It will only transfer the direction.

Sail boats would not be able to sail into the wind if it were not for the rudder and hull. They'd just keep being pushed away no matter how you turned them.