Author Topic: F5 taking off and straffing  (Read 1220 times)

Offline Elfie

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2005, 05:35:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
when you have less than a thousand rounds does it really matter the diff. between 100 and 70 RPS?


Yes it does in todays high speed jet combat. The more rounds you can put on target in as little time as possible can mean the difference between a kill and being killed.

According to an F-15 pilot I spoke with while we both sat on alert duty, USAF pilots are taught to fire 100 round bursts. (Eaglr can verify this if USAF pilots are still taught this) During our lengthy conversation he never once mentioned spool up time on the gun being a factor. I would think that USAF wouldnt keep using the gatling guns if the revolving breech guns were faster.

*edit* Just thought of something. The revolving breech mechanism should have a spool up time as well.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2005, 05:41:07 PM by Elfie »
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2005, 05:39:31 PM »
Ahh but thats the kicker Elfie. JSF was supposed to get Mauser BK27 revolver but had to settle for GAU12 gatling when the license production deal couldnt be worked out.

Reading up on that plane some time ago is where I got this information about initial rof advantages of revolvers.  And just like you said, the important thing is rate of fire in the shortest instant from trigger pull and here revolvers are better.

Offline Elfie

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2005, 06:35:16 PM »
Found this on the Mauser BK 27.

http://www.global-defence.com/2000/pages/mauser.html

This reference talks about a revolutionary new feed system for the Mauser BK 27, a linkless system to feed the round to the gun and then to return the spent casings to the ammunition drum. I dont see what is so revolutionary about that, the M61A1 has used that same system for decades now.

This reference does list: Time to rate: instantaneous for the Mauser.


Found it! :D


http://www.answers.com/topic/m61-vulcan

Some experts feel that despite its high rate of fire, the Gatling-type weapon is hampered by the time it takes for the weapon to spin up to its maximum rotation speed (about 0.5 second). As a result, a one-second burst only fires about 70-75 rounds, which some experts feel is not enough of an advantage over revolver cannon like the ADEN/DEFA 30 mm weapons to justify the additional weight and complexity.

The F-5's twin M39 cannon with a combined rof of 3000rpm would put out 50 rounds per second. The Mauser Bk 27's rof of 1700 rpm would still be slower than the 70 - 75 rps of the M61A1.

The article I linked to has this to say about the 20mm gatling gun in use by the USAF today.

Despite its reliability and tremendous rate of fire, the Vulcan has been increasingly criticized in recent years for its limited performance.

The ballistic characteristics of the 20 mm round are relatively poor, with the projectile losing energy quickly, and its killing power and accuracy are marginal compared to the heavier 25-30 mm rounds favored by European and Russian air forces. Efforts to develop a higher-caliber replacement for the M61 have thus far had limited success. The USAF spent a great deal of money in 1970s on the 25 mm GAU-7 cannon for the F-15, using caseless ammunition, but it proved to be a failure and was abandoned in favor of the Vulcan. The five-barrel GAU-12 Equalizer 25 mm gun used in the AV-8B Harrier II is a Vulcan derivative, but despite greater hitting power (since it fires a heavier round at virtually the same muzzle velocity) it has yet to find wide application.

While the M61A1 does have a spool up time (didnt know that prior to this thread, thanks Grun!), it still appears to have a faster rof even for one second bursts than the revolver cannons do. Problems with the M61A1 appear to be more about the ballistics of the rounds themselves as oppossed to an actual rof.

Now I am wondering how the Mauser Bk 27 achieves an instantaneous rof since the revolving breach mechanism obviously has mass that needs to get in motion. Maybe it's the fact that it has less mass than the gatling gun?
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Offline Maverick

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2005, 07:35:08 PM »
OK you two, go get a room!  :p
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Offline hawker238

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2005, 07:40:59 PM »
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Originally posted by Maverick
OK you two, go get a room!  :p


LOL, sizing eachother up....


Anyways, awesome video and awesome post, MwXX!

Offline Gunslinger

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2005, 07:46:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
While the M61A1 does have a spool up time (didnt know that prior to this thread, thanks Grun!), it still appears to have a faster rof even for one second bursts than the revolver cannons do. Problems with the M61A1 appear to be more about the ballistics of the rounds themselves as oppossed to an actual rof.

 


one thing I do know about the 61 from talking to crew chiefs, they have a HELL OF ALOT of torque!  So much so that iproperly installed/fired weapons actually end up tweaking the Air Frame itself pretty bad.

Offline Rino

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2005, 09:53:12 PM »
I haven't seen the aircraft version, but the shipborne Mauser
revolver cannon is pretty impressive.  Of course I only saw it on
one of those Story of the Gun specials on the Mauser company.
:)
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Offline Rino

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2005, 10:05:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
one thing I do know about the 61 from talking to crew chiefs, they have a HELL OF ALOT of torque!  So much so that iproperly installed/fired weapons actually end up tweaking the Air Frame itself pretty bad.


     Elfie could probably give you a better discription of this, but
one of the bigger problems with the Vulcan was that the
enormous amount of gases expelled by the gun were screwing
up the engines on the earlier fighters using them.

     In fact, if you check the early F-4es against the later blocks
you can see how they changed the shape of the shroud to
assist venting of the gases downward and away from the
intakes.
Early F-4E Late F-4E
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Offline Saurdaukar

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2005, 10:13:54 PM »
0/\/\G!111  MiG28s!!!1111

Offline IK3

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2005, 10:41:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mora
I think the F-5 was more of a low-cost and barebones fighter, at least on western standards. It was built for export to less developed "friendly" countries, hence the nick name "Freedom Fighter".


I think F-5 (in the 1960s-70s) is the best MiG killer the USAF did not use (back then, USAF said there's no need. "We'll pound em with missiles @ BVR range on our heavy pound for ground fighters)

Offline Elfie

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2005, 10:43:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
Elfie could probably give you a better discription of this, but
one of the bigger problems with the Vulcan was that the
enormous amount of gases expelled by the gun were screwing
up the engines on the earlier fighters using them.

     In fact, if you check the early F-4es against the later blocks
you can see how they changed the shape of the shroud to
assist venting of the gases downward and away from the
intakes.
Early F-4E Late F-4E


Rino, iirc thats the reason the F-15 and F-16 have their M61A1's mounted in the wing root.


Ever see a pic of a aircraft equipped with the M61A1 after it has fired the cannon? The huge quanities of gas that come out leave residue on the plane that has to be cleaned off daily by those poor slobs the weapons mechanics. :D


Gunslinger, I can believe that about the torque produced. The M61A1 has a Blast Diffuser/Muzzle clamp attached to it. Some sort of muzzle clamp is required to keep centrifugal forces from *spreading* the gun barrels during firing. If you had ever actually held one of those gun barrels and felt its weight you would find it incredible that they could bend enough to make any difference....but they can and do.
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Offline ASTAC

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2005, 10:55:09 PM »
M61 works great on the Navy CIWS..too bad the rest of the system is crap.
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Offline Elfie

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2005, 11:03:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ASTAC
M61 works great on the Navy CIWS..too bad the rest of the system is crap.


Out of all the gun jams I saw, not one was atrributed to a malfunction in the gun itself. All but one were attributed to something in either the feed system or the ammunition drum failed. The one jam not attributable to one of the above was caused by a round cooking off in the conveyor assyembly AFTER it had left the gun. That was the worst jam I ever saw. We had to disassemble the conveyor and ammo drum to remove the ammunition and spent casings. That was the only time I ever heard of a gun system being taken to the shop for maintenance while it still held live ammunition. Cost 100 grand to fix the entire system.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline bunch

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2005, 01:09:31 AM »
how can a photo plane strafe?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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F5 taking off and straffing
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2005, 03:02:17 AM »
Yep that was it, it seems i didnt remeber all the deatils correctly but thats the argument some pose in favor of revolvers.