Ammo for the gun lobby

[StSanta]

I do not believe guns make you anymore citizens, btw. Even here it is possible to get hold of guns - pistols, revolvers and semi/full automatics being difficult to get, but rifles of small and large calibres being very wide spread.

The US government has to its disposal everything from teargas to nuclear weapons. Why it'd terminate the thing that makes it exist (the people) is beyond me, so it's safe to say that this won't happen.

It might try to turn into a fascist state which murders its citizens. Owning a handgun might result in the death of one of the soldiers that come to arrest you and your family at 3am in the morning, but just as the regime is indifferent to your impending death, so it is indifferent to the deaths of a few of it's "secret police".

What I am saying is that using them in defense in this way is going to be very inefficient. And, the regime might go a bit further and decide to torture the relatives of whoever kills one of their secret police members, just that little bit extra.

The alternative is some form of guerilla warfare, either through the underground method seen by the resistance movements and various terrorist organisations in Europe, or by partisan methods where you disrupt and attack enemy lines of communication. The drawback to this is you need a relatively large force and if the regime gets attacked, they'll pour in resources to deal with the threat. Shelling a few towns wouldn't be outside the moral restrictions on this terrible terrible regime.

Whether you have a Colt 45 or a Remington .308 won't make much of a difference against artillery shells, APC's and tanks. If anything, the hunting rifle with its greater penetration, range and accuracy is a preferable weapon. And a shotgun does the job better at close range than a pistol.

What options does the American have that a European living in a country where hunting is widespread have? Your guns are registered (some or most of them), and so our ours (some or most of them).

You're restricted to the same style of resistance as the European person would be - and Europeans have been there, tried that. Lots of stuff was blown up even when one of the worst regimes of terror fell upon Europe.  Members of my family were helping the resistance by stockpiling weapons and explosives that were illegaly obtained.

Explain to me, dear Americans, how you are more citizens than I am. i believe you live under the false assumption that the US is somehow more free than the rest of the western countries, something I personally feel is a bit insulting.

[batdog]

Apples and Oranges. We Americans have a somewhat different mentality... we get friggen pissed when some bozo starts stomping on us. You bring that same Nazi scum over here in the 30's and 40's and let them roll their tanks in and see what would of happened. You saw what happened after Peral Harbor... did we friggen fold? Did we say oh... you can have that? NO... and its still that way.
 Oh.. so we cant defend ourselfs vrs MODERN miltaries...ROTFL. roadkill... I have ONE word... VIETCONG, tell them that. You can have the best damn equipment in the world but you have to be able to apply that force. The Vietcong understood this... hit and dispurse. Kill the men operating the equipment, drain them, wear them down. It worked...

 Just because you guys mostly rolled over and played dead doesnt mean we would... so get over it. Oh... and I'm not including the Brits... they wouldnt give in if you stomped then to death.

 xBAT
"Made in the USA"

[Toad]

"i believe you live under the false assumption that the US is somehow more free than the rest of the western countries"

Santa, repost that bit about how Denmark won't let you dive on a WW2 wreck.  

I haven't lived for long lengths of time in Europe but I've had many, many visits of up to a month. My impression is that you folks do in fact have many more laws and regulations covering what a person chooses to do than we have.

Just an impression.

[StSanta]

Toad, just as you have regulations regarding how you can have sex  . I've seen some of those laws. Not to mention different policy on drugs to mention one other thing. Or the freedom to enjoy a beer in a public place such as on a bench next to a busy road.

Or prostitution. We could go in and compare all the nitty gritty small details, but that's not my point. With regards to the big things, such as freedom of speech and so forth, we have these rights in most european countries. Freedom is not an American owned concept, and it wasn't concieved by Americans. An "ugly American", a la batdog, will suggest it is, and this type of ignorance or selective understanding of the world is one of the reasons Europeans and Americans sometimes begin to argue.

With comments abut Vietnam etc, several things are quite different. A) there's not a helluva lot of jungle to hide in. B) There's not a major superpower providing weapons. C) the attacking force doesn't come from half a world away.

batdog, keep your crap to yourself until you learn how to learn.

batdog, you were in a nation that had an armed force equivalent to the Swedish one, maybe a little bigger at the start of WWII. if the US had been neighbor to germany, like Denmark is, you'd be whacked so hard in your head perhaps that pompous attitude of yours would have been dislodged from your anus when your feet were inserted into said anus.

Americans did great in WWII, not disputing that, but you need to realize and understand the relative military strenghts and the socio-economic situation of prewar Europe before posting such ignorant roadkill as you just have done. I cannot believe one has such a comprehensive lack of these concepts, so I'll take it you're a troll and be done with you now.

 

[MrBill]

StSanta
I agree with most of what you posted BUT ...
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With comments abut Vietnam etc., several things are quite different. A) there's not a helluva lot of jungle to hide in. B) There's not a major superpower providing weapons. C) the attacking force doesn't come from half a world away.
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Afghanistan: Not a lot of Jungles to hide in ... No major superpower providing weapons at least not to the extent of Vietnam ... the attacking force did not come from half a world away.
  Throughout History small "armed countries" have successfully resisted invasions, not always, but enough to count.  I can find no case of a disarmed country being successful in this endeavor.  If a whole people wish to resist, by force of arms, they are usually successful if they have any sort of weaponry and usually fail if they do not.
 As to WWII the Russians (all of Europe in fact) fared poorly in the beginning, even while having a larger army (in some cases).  It is my opinion that this was largely due to having unarmed populations.  Once the population began to become "armed" (mostly with "found" weaponry) the tide turned.  I read somewhere that later in the war some 1/3 of the German army was on anti partisan duty.  There is still (in some quarters) speculation on the results if the Germans had carried weapons to arm the Russians who greeted them as liberators, and treated them as allies.
 But what ifs are fun to play with.

[Thud]

Oh.. so we cant defend ourselfs vrs MODERN miltaries...ROTFL. roadkill... I have ONE word... VIETCONG, tell them that. You can have the best damn equipment in the world but you have to be able to apply that force. The Vietcong understood this... hit and dispurse. Kill the men operating the equipment, drain them, wear them down. It worked...
[/QB]

The strategy and to a lesser extent the tactics of the VC never worked from a military point of view, they only achieved their goal by political means. And if the modern military power you referred to didn't constrain itself so extremely as the US and allies did in VN than the VC and alikes would be annihilated very quickly. Even though it gives max results out of small forces with limited resources guerilla warfare is still no match for a dedicated military power.

[Toad]

Santa, what of this from Thud who's profile says he's from the Netherlands?

 

Originally posted by Thud:
It is very sad though that statements in the categories I mentioned before (racist, discriminating, deregatory towards minorities etc.) are not forbidden by law and penalized as they should be. I think it's a grave shortcoming of a society if they don't adapt their laws to prevent these kinds of extremist views to be expressed.

I assume, possibly in error, that some European countries have such laws about speech?

Here, otoh, we have this example:
 http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/home.pat,local/3accbec7.612,.html

"Missouri's decision to deny a vanity license plate bearing "ARYAN-1" violated the constitutional rights of a Jefferson City woman, a federal appeals court ruled Tuesday. ...Robert Herman, a St. Louis lawyer who pressed Lewis' claim for the American Civil Liberties Union, framed the dispute as a classic free-speech issue covered by the First Amendment.

"This is another example of the government trying to enforce the notion of political correctness," said Herman. "They shouldn't be allowed to do that."

Just one example.

As for the "armed citizen" thing, all of this is mere speculation. If it ever came to a showdown between a powerful but unpopular Federal Government it would be very interesting to see how it played out.

All our Armed Forces pledge to defend the Constitution, not any particular person or Office of Government or for that matter the Government itself.

The National Guard, which is currently assuming a greater role in the US military, is by nature a very "local" rather than "national" force.

I doubt it will ever come to that, but it makes interesting "what if" conversation.

One thing is NOT specualtion, however. If ever the "Government" came to herd me and mine down to the train station in order to send us off to a place where "Arbat Macht Frei" the stand would be made right there.

   

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

[batdog]

Okay... first off the US is FULL of areas that would be a gerrilla fighters dream. We have huge population centers, forest galore, swamps etc.
 The concept of hit and run warefare is attrition. You never win any conculsive engagements. You never allow yourself to be drawn into a head to head engagement. You strike for max effect and min damage to yourself. The goal wouldnt be to DEFEAT a hostile government, it would be to wear out its will... Vietnam did this to us and we could do the same to a government gone bad here.

 If the US had been hit by Germany in WW2 you'd of had farmboys,city pep's and hillbilly types blasting away with whatever was at hand... Vietnam 20yrs earlier. The damn Germans would of been in a meatgrinder. My grandfather was a moonshiner roughneck that hates Nazies with a passion... and there isnt any rollover in him. That entire generation was pretty fired up and I'd put MY money on them anyday.

 As far as the personal attacks... baaa, I've heard alot worse, and far more original   AND perhaps my tone was abit abrasive.

 I think history has often showed that many non-americans simply dont understand us and make false assumptions based on experiences with others peoples, nations etc. We are a different breed... some good some bad but most certainly different.

xBAT

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: batdog ]

[fd ski]

Originally posted by batdog:

 If the US had been hit by Germany in WW2 you'd of had farmboys,city pep's and hillbilly types blasting away with whatever was at hand... Vietnam 20yrs earlier. The damn Germans would of been in a meatgrinder.

Too many Patrick Sweazy movies for you i guess...

[Ripsnort]

When Fd-ski can't come back with a logical rebuttal, he turns to stero-typing, typical.  

[Thud]

Toad said:

 posted 06-13-2001 10:44 AM                
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Santa, what of this from Thud who's profile says he's from the Netherlands?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Thud:
It is very sad though that statements in the categories I mentioned before (racist, discriminating, deregatory towards minorities etc.) are not forbidden by law and penalized as they should be. I think it's a grave shortcoming of a society if they don't adapt their laws to prevent these kinds of extremist views to be expressed.

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"I assume, possibly in error, that some European countries have such laws about speech?"
---------------------------------------------

The Europeen community has adopted a law against discrimination, racism and unequality very recently. It litterally says under definition of discrimination:"The creating of an environment insulting, hostile, derogatory, hurtful based on race or ethnicity is considered discrimination."

Under sanctions it says:"The memberstates are allowed to implemet their own sanctions, they have to be sufficient, corresponding with the fact committed and sufficiently deterring." All membercountries have signed this and in 2003 these all sanctions are to be reviewed and possibly changed to be more uniform overall.

"Santa, what of this from Thud who's profile says he's from the Netherlands?"

I might have these ideas but I can assure you that the majority of Dutch people does not fully agree with this. So you might want to review your prejudicial ideas on Europeans.


BTW as for that stupid squeak with the ARYAN-1 licenseplate: Just filing the request for the plates should have her put away in a sanatorium and a straight-jacket, on the other hand it would be fun if some really big truck didn't brake in time if she drove around with her new shiny plates.

If you think a constitution should entitle citizens to have such plates you're a moron.

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: Thud ]

[Geeb]

Give me a billet of steel and 1 week i will give u a gun. gun control is to keep the masses happy. pro firearms people are a loud minority. when they finaly get this regisration bit down i will turn in 1 homemade gun a week. first couple will probably be just pipe guns, then i will buy a milling machine metal lathe combo & make some fun ones

[Toad]

Thud,

I am/was not being "prejudicial" against anyone, not even Euros.  

I just didn't know if there actually were such laws as you mentioned. Apparently there are.

So, thanks for the information.

There you are Santa. Those laws are a BIG difference in personal freedoms.

So, along with that moron Voltaire and the American Civil Liberties Union morons and uncountable other "morons",   I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."

[mietla]

Originally poseted by Thud:

BTW as for that stupid squeak with the ARYAN-1 licenseplate: Just filing the request for the plates should have her put away in a sanatorium and a straight-jacket, on the other hand it would be fun if some really big truck didn't brake in time if she drove around with her new shiny plates.

Now you are getting out right scary. Why sanatorium? Why not the re-education camp? Or why not just nip it in a bud, and just whack "that stupid squeak".

You Sir, have no clue what the word right means.

But than again, you've already said:

     

OK, granted, but that doesn't imply that people shouldn't give up that 'right' for a greater good and let society benefit from their action.

And obviously you aspire to be a final abiter who should give up their rights, and what the "greater good" is.

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]

[mietla]

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
-Thomas Jefferson (1791)


One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.
-Thomas B. Reed (1886)


Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
-William Pitt (1783)

The true danger is when Liberty is nibbled away, for expedients.
-Edmund Burke (1899)


The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.
-Louis Brandeis (1928)


Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
-Daniel Webster


Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
-Thomas Jefferson (1801)


The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
-H.L. Mencken

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
-C. S. Lewis

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]