Ammo for the gun lobby

[Thud]

Originally posted by Toad:
Thud,

I am/was not being "prejudicial" against anyone, not even Euros.  

"

Then I'm sorry, Toad. I apparently misunderstood your statement about my post giving away me being an european, my fault.


Posted by Mietla:

"Now you are getting out right scary. Why sanatorium? Why not the re-education camp? Or why not just nip it in a bud, and just whack "that stupid squeak"?"

I said nothing about a camp, but yes, sanatorium. Do you believe that this woman is actually mentally sane and accountable for her actions? I think if you're convinced of that you're out right scary rather than me. And I don't think that 'whacking "that stupid squeak"', as you have quoted correctly (I got a bit agitated when reading the story, should indeed have used "woman") is a solution either. Still think that she is mentally ill though, same as with guy from Florida? who caused quite a international stir with his 'ZYKLON-B' plates a few years ago.

Posted by Mietla:

"But than again, you've already said:

quote:
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OK, granted, but that doesn't imply that people shouldn't give up that 'right' for a greater good and let society benefit from their action.

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And obviously you aspire to be a final abiter who should give up their rights, and what the "greater good" is."

I think you know very well that 'the greater good' I was referring to in that post was public safety. Furthermore I think that you have concluded from my previous posts as well that I don't aspire to be a 'final arbiter' on anything, but that I rather let the popular vote decide in most instances whether anything is a 'greater good' indeed or not.

[StSanta]

Toad, IIRC, there are anti racist laws in the US too, as well as other infringements on the right of free speech such as disallowing yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded cinema.

In Denmark, one is allowed to publicly display the nazi swastika; there's a huge one hanging on a house not 500 meters from where I live, and now and then European nazi's meet here.

And they're protected by our constitution through the right of free speech. I believe in some states in the US, this is not legal.

We could go on comparing minor details like this Toad, but both you and I know it's not the issue. While there are minor differences the freedoms we enjoy in both nations are overall equal. our nations have different ways of dealing with issues like crime, drugs and so forth, but it is a diverse world. What we share is freedom of press, freedom of speech and so forth.

And, I contend, we're just as much citizens as you are. We have a small state, very low corruption and due to the homogenity, we're able to keep our politicians somewhat honest, something that is definitely not true in the US, and something that you and others are quick to point out.

And we got enough weapons to defend ourselves against the state. Our military is pitifully small and couldn't handle a revolution very effectively.

We're citizens, and we're free citizens. This is not just an American phenomenon, and never has been.

[Yoj]

Originally posted by Pongo:

My argument at the time was that it is hard to imagine some one commiting mass murder with a knife...
well some jap read that post and decided to prove me wrong I guess.

Actually, with their long, respected and recent tradition of edged weapons (the Yakuza still prefer them to guns), it was far more likely to happen in Japan.  One should not assume that this particular sicko used a knife because he couldn't get a gun.

There is every reason to believe the amount of gun crime in the US is in fact directly related to the availability of guns.  Proper education and personal discipline would help, but mandating education and discipline would require a more repressive and intrusive Big Brother than anything gun control would ever bring.

And, just to stir the pot a little more, I should point out that the Second Amendment does NOT give all citizens an unconditional right to bear arms.  Anyone who thinks that should go and READ the amendment.

Hey - SOMEONE had to say it  

- Yoj

[mietla]

Originally posted by Thud:
I said nothing about a camp, but yes, sanatorium.

It is only a matter of degree. Would she be "medicated"? Shock theraphy perhaps?

You obviously allow (even demand) that people are punished for their views. I do not. Neither does our Constitution.

And again, you are completely misguided and uninformed. The Constitution is not a subject of the public opinion polls. It does not matter what the public wants, we still have those fundamental rights. At least until the Constitution is abolished or ammended.

 

Do you believe that this woman is actually mentally sane and accountable for her actions? I think if you're convinced of that you're out right scary rather than me.

I do not know her mental state, and neither do you. And yet, you feel entitled to define her mental capacity by the views she is displaying.

Would you support the following line of reasoning as well?

Only an insane person would support Communist views... therefore
... every person who supports Communism is insane....  therefore
... every Communist should be sent to a "sanatorium"

 

Originally posted by Thud:
... [ I ] Still think that she is mentally ill though, ...

On what are you are basing this statement? Please do tell.


   

Originally posted by Thud:
I think you know very well that 'the greater good' I was referring to in that post was public safety.

There is no "greater good". Hitler, Statin, Mao, Pol-Pot etc. did what they did for the "greater good". And yes, most of their people supported them in this "greater good".



    Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
    -Daniel Webster


    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
    -C. S. Lewis


    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
    -William Pitt (1783)


[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]

[Toad]

Santa, check the thread. I am not the one that got into the "citzen/not citzen" debate. I've simply made a few observations from the sidelines.

I'm glad you're a happy Euro. I hope you're glad I'm a happy Yank.   You don't have to worry about me moving over there for a second. I'll just visit now and again.  

I must admit, Thud's views are a bit too.. um... reminiscent of a time I would not want to relive...for me. I'm normally not a big fan of the ACLU, but they did the right thing in this case.  

Yoj, there's one or two real good 2nd threads where all those horses you're alluding to have been severely thrashed and the remains fed to the coyotes. So, I won't comment here.  

I'm out of here to go re-read some Voltaire.

[Thud]

Originally posted by Mietla:

"quote:
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 Originally posted by Thud:
I said nothing about a camp, but yes, sanatorium.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is only a matter of degree. Would she be "medicated"? Shock theraphy perhaps?

You obviously allow (even demand) that people are punished for their views. I do not. Neither does our Constitution."

FYI, I did not say that she should be sent to the sanatorium for having her (sick) view, I said that she should be sent to a sanatorium for requesting and using the licenseplates in question.


And again, you are completely misguided and uninformed. The Constitution is not a subject of the public opinion polls. It does not matter what the public wants, we still have those fundamental rights. At least until the Constitution is abolished or ammended."

And again you did not read properly what I stated: I was not referring to the constitution, constitutional rights or any of the alike. I wrote that I think that the popular vote should decide on anything being a 'greater good' or not, i.e. should a certain idea (in a political program of a certain party) be pursued/implemented, if the dems for example want to introduce a higher minimum wage for all, and they win the next election by a large margin, you can assume that many citizens find this indeed an idea worth pursuing. And for something like public safety, the only greater good I ever referred to, I am sure that everybody agrees with me that's indeed a 'greater good'. This all in response to you writing that I wanted to be the final arbiter to whether somehing being a greater good or not.

quote:
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Do you believe that this woman is actually mentally sane and accountable for her actions? I think if you're convinced of that you're out right scary rather than me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not know her mental state, and neither do you. And yet, you feel entitled to define her mental capacity by the views she is displaying.

Would you support the following line of reasoning as well?

Only an insane person would support Communist views... therefore
... every person who supports Communism is insane.... therefore
... every Communist should be sent to a "sanatorium"[/i]

Nice cliche, I don't think that communists should be sent to a sanatorium, though. The ones that believe that the capitalist society must me overthrown by revolution and all capitalists should be eliminated could use some counselling, yes. Same goes for those that have actually tried to achieve those ideals by violence, i.e. movements like RAF and Red Brigades. So if you have been paying attention I draw the line between someone having a opinion on politics, society etc. to which he/she is fully entitled of course,  and qualifying for a sanatorium at the point where they begin to have violent ideas on other groups, either the non-like minded or just someone that happens to be the subject of their wonderful ideology.
 

quote:
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 Originally posted by Thud:
... [ I ] Still think that she is mentally ill though, ...

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On what are you are basing this statement? Please do tell.

You think that she is mentally sane? Anyone who can justify to theirselves to drive around with ARYAN or ZYKLON-B has a twisted mind, in fact you're saying that you're a strong proponent of the holocaust, that does almost qualify you as mentally ill already, the public display of it makes it worse. These expressions should be forbidden, just like using the swastika for other than educational reasons.


Originally posted by mietla:

"There is no "greater good". Hitler, Statin, Mao, Pol-Pot etc. did what they did for the "greater good". And yes, most of their people supported them in this "greater good"."

Because these criminals used to refer to their deranged ideals as 'the greater good' does not mean that real 'greater goods' like public safety, good healthcare, reasonable living conditions for all, a suppression free environment etc, etc. can be compared to their outrageous ideas. Not very well-mannered to associate these with the people above.

[Yoj]

Originally posted by Toad:


Yoj, there's one or two real good 2nd threads where all those horses you're alluding to have been severely thrashed and the remains fed to the coyotes. So, I won't comment here.  

Yeah - I'm too irregular a reader of these boards to catch all the goodies    Ah well - another time.

- Yoj

[BNM]

The constitutional rights are not a subject of opinion polls.

Sorry but Pongo has no rights, he's Canadian.

[Mirge]

just look at all the places that have strong gun controls ..the UK for instance they all have high % gun related crimes.. while places that have relaxed gun control laws have low % gun related crimes.... criminals dont care if guns are banned in fact they would like it because they know the ppl they are robbing etc dont have guns to protect themselves with. just like with drugs and before that if you can remember alcohol there will be more crime if you ban something with that much demand...
America already has "The war on Drugs" and "The war on terrorism"
do we really need "The war on guns?"

[Regurge]

Originally posted by Thud
... So if you have been paying attention I draw the line between someone having a opinion on politics, society etc. to which he/she is fully entitled of course,  and qualifying for a sanatorium at the point where they begin to have violent ideas on other groups, either the non-like minded or just someone that happens to be the subject of their wonderful ideology.

No, you draw line at expression of "forbidden" ideas, as you say yourself below.

...You think that she is mentally sane? Anyone who can justify to theirselves to drive around with ARYAN or ZYKLON-B has a twisted mind, in fact you're saying that you're a strong proponent of the holocaust, that does almost qualify you as mentally ill already, the public display of it makes it worse. These expressions should be forbidden, just like using the swastika for other than educational reasons.

Hey, now mietla is borderline insane. No violent expressions from him tho. And I guess I'm almost insane for agreeing with him. Best to bring us all in for examination I suppose. After all, its only for the greater good right?

 

Nice little society your'e advocating here. Everyone is free to think what they want, but only speach approved by the government(or whoever is holding the big "INSANE" stamp) is allowed.

You're not at all like Hitler, Stalin, etc.. You want to imprison those with incorrect ideas because you really care. Those other guys did it because they were big meanies.

[Pongo]

Originally posted by BNM
Sorry but Pongo has no rights, he's Canadian.

Even in the US. you have the constitutional right to an opinion though I believe.

[lazs2]

fd... why waco?  why not the SLA?  lot's of nut groups with clearly anti social agendas and human rights violations that are armed but.... even then... our government is very careful when confronting them...  And... if they handle it badly... like waco... they get burned...  I think that waco taught most people that it is a good idea to be armed not the oppossite.

As deja says... imagine if the government were say... wanting to ban religion and the whole town of waco stood up to em... imagine that while the government were trying to put out that fire 100 other armed "religious fanatics" groups all over the country all defended their rights with firearms..  Now imagine how hard it would be to conscript new army from an armed populace.

as for your 5 year olds with M60's... I don't belive children should have guns or chainsaws or even cars without adult supervision but... If it were known that even 10% of the teachers might be concealed carry permit holders and armed.... how many school shootings would we have?   What is the solution most schools are finally using?   stricter searches?  no.... ARMED guards.  They are putting guins in the guinh free zones.

The japs are pikers... any goo ol American psyco could come up with a better gun free way of mass murdering children.    Crashing a plane or semi truck... explosives... poison... the list is endless...
lazs

[Airhead]

The only way I could agree with a ban on firearms is if we retrain those people who would be most affected by such a ban- the career criminal. We need to retrain the robbers and gangbangers and guarantee them Government jobs for a firearms ban to ever be effective, otherwise they won't be willing to give their guns up.

[Mirge]

is this thread too serious for this forum

[Ping]

Interestingly enough Air...thats been done in Canada. We now ensure that all career criminals are politicians.