Author Topic: Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?  (Read 1778 times)

Offline SunTracker

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« on: May 16, 2005, 10:52:46 AM »
Would bombers be at all competitive if the accuracy of bomber guns was reduced to a realistic level?  As of right now, bombers perform how the US Army Air Corp thought they would in the late 30s- being able to fly undefended into enemy territory and fight their way in and out.  As real life has shown, they could not.

I believe the average dispersion for a bomber turret was 20 feet at 500 yards.

Offline BUG_EAF322

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2005, 11:42:45 AM »
Some bombers hit everything  like a laser but i cant hit anything in it.

It just seems some guys are very practized in it.

But mostly i just wack any bomber formation looking at my K/D there is nothing to complain.
Making the guns "weaker" would be the end of the bomber fun for most of them drivers i guess.

Offline Tails

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2005, 11:44:21 AM »
Actually, RL bombers had to deal with fairly well trained enemy pilots, or atleast some degree of coordination and tactics.

Here, at least when I fly buffs, about %70 of the attacks against me are co-alt rear-hemisphere. Very easy targets.

When more people start to learn the proper way to attack a buff group, we will start to see unescorted survivability similar to what RealLife (tm) has shown.
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Offline Wotan

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2005, 12:22:04 PM »
How do you think bombers were attacked in real life?

From the rear. All the hype over the LW head on attacks is nothing more then that. Göring actually made an order stopping head on attacks. It took a real expert to score hits due to the closure speeds and small target profile. After a head -on attck where do you end up? In the rear. The LW wouldn't have time to fly out ahead and set up anopthe rrun fropm head on especially later in the war when the escort numbers grew.

The Sturmgruppen attacked bombers by flying right up their arse and shooting them down.

At 600yards the tail gunner on a B-17 had a dispersion of something like 28 ft while on the ground (IIRC I posted a scan a while that shows test results from  bomber gun tests that were conducted on he ground). In the air the odds of landing a single hit on an attacking fighter would have more to do with luck then 'bomber gunner' skillz.

Some of the most inexperienced LW pilots were those tasked with hunting bombers.

So all the talk about the 'proper way to kill a bomber' is just so much BS its not even funny.

Don't try to rationalize away the fact that in AH the bombers guns don't have 'historical dispersion' nor is the gunner affected by turbulence or 'gun shake'. Plus he has icons to give him range etc...

The answer to the original posters question is:

No AH bomber types can not handle realistic bomber gunners for several reasons.

1. Most don't fly bombers 'realistically'.

2. Most fly alone

3. Most don't bother climbing or planning a route to avoid contact.

4. Their are to few folks unwilling to be bored flying escort for the bombers.

If Ah went with more realism with the bomber gunners then very few would continue to fly bombers, especially in the main (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

Offline Angus

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2005, 12:48:14 PM »
Emmm, one thing Wotan:
"After a head -on attck where do you end up? In the rear"

And I may add that once there the same departure rate applies as the closure rate mentioned.
Some of the head-on attacks were successful enough tocause the buffs to have frontal armament.

Anyway, I'd expect Tony Williams to pop in and inform us....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Wotan

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2005, 01:18:36 PM »
Guns weren't added just because the potential 'damage' they may cause. Scorng a hit as I said was mostly luck. They are also were added to help the moral of the crews.

Head-on Attacks were very disturbing to the bomber pilots. Not only were they the main target of the pass but they had to rely on the pilot of the attacking fighter to avoid collision.

If you need a break down of Sturmgruppe tactics let me know I will give info...

In the mean time pick up:

Gunner:- An Illustrated History of World War II Aircraft Turrets and Gun Positions

ISBN 1 84037 304 0

by Donald Nijboer

Offline Angus

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2005, 01:26:35 PM »
Somewhere I have a big file from LW gun cams attacking.
Not all from 6 o clock, but some.
If I find it, I could mail it, but achtung,some 11 megs or so.
Maybe you have it?

Anyway, thx for the ISBN ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline bunch

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2005, 01:31:35 PM »
HO attacks were ordered stopped March 1944.  Before that they seem to have been popular.  I have LW guncamera footage of HO attacks on my HD.  Heinz Knoke writes about performing these against B-24s with quite effective results

Offline Tony Williams

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2005, 03:23:39 PM »
If you want to make bomber fire realistic, the simplest thing to do is to load the guns with blanks. They fired tens of thousands of rounds for every plane shot down.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Offline Waffle

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2005, 03:33:01 PM »
Cue the German guncam footage pls.....


note how close the attacking planes were and how long they stayed in a cone of fire....

sad thing is those were probably the stragglers that had fallen out of formation

as for in game - you'd have to trade gun accuracy for damge, meaning less accurate gunners - the more lead you'd have to pump into them to bring them down.  

Honestly, I'd like to see the bombers toughend up a little bit currently.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 03:40:39 PM by Waffle »

Offline straffo

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2005, 04:25:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams
If you want to make bomber fire realistic, the simplest thing to do is to load the guns with blanks. They fired tens of thousands of rounds for every plane shot down.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum


This suggestion will make lot of people cry :D

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2005, 04:34:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
Would bombers be at all competitive if the accuracy of bomber guns was reduced to a realistic level?  As of right now, bombers perform how the US Army Air Corp thought they would in the late 30s- being able to fly undefended into enemy territory and fight their way in and out.  As real life has shown, they could not.

I believe the average dispersion for a bomber turret was 20 feet at 500 yards.



Bombers are terribly easy to shoot down in this game.  Wish they would be more of a challenge.  Kind of like shooting down moving barrage balloons as they stand now.


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Offline Schaden

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2005, 04:46:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams
If you want to make bomber fire realistic, the simplest thing to do is to load the guns with blanks. They fired tens of thousands of rounds for every plane shot down.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum


I could probably live with this in the interests of realism...

Offline Wotan

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2005, 05:05:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams
If you want to make bomber fire realistic, the simplest thing to do is to load the guns with blanks. They fired tens of thousands of rounds for every plane shot down.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum


Mr. Williams is exactly correct.

However, if HT did that you would see no more bombers in the main. Which as I said isn't necessarily a bad thing considering how they are employed.

Angus and bunch I have plenty of films. Its only the expert shots that were effective in making head on runs. The average pilot was not that skilled.

Head-on passes are the least effective way to ensure hits. The best way is slow closure from 6 o'clock and getting in close. Which is how 90% of the bombers shot down by LW fighters were killed.

I can post kill claims that show pilot jumping from one bomber after another shooting them down in minutes of each other. You can't do that head on. While a head-on attack may appear less threatening to the attacker it's effectively a one pass solution.

Sturmgruppe pilots were ordered not to return to base unless they expended all their ammo. They would run of fuel making multiple head on pases before they ran out of ammo.

The whole 'head-on' thing is just nothing more then hype. Some of the least experienced LW pilots were attacking bombers.

Bombers are more difficult (I am not saying they are hard to kill, because they are not) in AH because of game play not because its 'realistic'. No amount of rationalizing will change that.

Offline Ghosth

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Could AH handle realistic bomber guns?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2005, 05:56:59 PM »
Wotan,

Whats the wingspan of a 190?

Seems to me that someplace between 400 yards & 700 yards that wingspan is going to fill that dispersion circle. Granted its only going to be a portion of the circle. But considering the rounds a B17 can put out in 10 seconds odds are fairly good for a critical hit.


Over all its possible to shoot a plane down in a bomber if the fighter pilot isn't smart.

Its also possible to shoot down a bomber if you don't park on his 6.

My opinion, while it may not be, nor ever be perfect. Its not THAT broke, leave it be.