Author Topic: Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?  (Read 1650 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« on: November 28, 2000, 10:06:00 AM »
By Audrey Hudson
                  THE WASHINGTON TIMES

                       The uncounted ballots in Florida — which
                  have played a key role in Democratic
                  challenges — are just a drop in the bucket of
                  ballots dismissed nationwide because of voter
                  error, say political observers.
                       An estimated 180,000
                  votes were dismissed in
                  Florida — out of 6.1
                  million votes cast —
                  because of improper
                  voting procedures.
                       However, more than 2
                  million ballots were
                  tossed out in all 50 states
                  and also will not be
                  counted, said Curtis Gans,
                  director of the Committee
                  for the Study of the
                  American Electorate.
                       Mr. Gans estimates that between 1 percent
                  and 1.8 percent of votes cast — or 2.1 million
                  to 2.8 million ballots — were eliminated
                  nationally.
                       "These are people who by one form or
                  another did not accurately do their ballot, and
                  it was thereby thrown out for one reason or
                  another," Mr. Gans said.
                       Vice President Al Gore is contesting the
                  election in Florida based on "incomplete and
                  inaccurate" vote tallies.
The official count
                  announced Sunday night gave Republican
                  George W. Bush a 537-vote victory in Florida
                  and the state's 25 electoral votes.
                       "If we ignore the votes that have been cast,
                  then where does that lead?" Mr. Gore asked
                  rhetorically in a telephone call yesterday to
                  congressional Democrats. "The integrity of our
                  democracy depends upon the consent of the
                  governed, freely expressed in an election
                  where every vote is counted."
                       "What is at issue here is nothing less than
                  every American's simple, sacred right to
                  vote," said Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman, Mr.
                  Gore's running mate.
                       "How can we teach our children that every
                  vote counts if we are not willing to make a
                  good-faith effort to count every vote?" the
                  Connecticut Democrat asked Sunday after
                  Florida's secretary of state certified election
                  returns.
                       The every-vote-must-count mantra makes
                  sense on paper, but election experts say it is
                  not feasible to count every vote cast, and in
                  this case is "sheer hypocrisy," said Rep. John
                  Shadegg, Arizona Republican and an election
                  lawyer.
                       "Clearly, they do not believe that every
                  vote should count. These thoughts are
                  impeached by their attempts to get military
                  overseas ballots thrown out, and also
                  impeached by the fact they did not ask for a
                  manual recount in any of the remaining Florida
                  counties which also used punch-card ballots,"
                  Mr. Shadegg said.
                       "Realistically, the answer is no, you cannot
                  count every vote," said Doug Lewis, director
                  of the Election Center, an international service
                  association of election and voter registration
                  officials.
                       Sometimes, voters fail —through their own
                  error — to turn a ballot into a vote.
                       "Obviously, if the voter votes in a manner
                  where it is impossible to determine their intent
                  or that they voted for too many people, then
                  you have no choice but to remove that vote
                  from the count," Mr. Lewis said.
                       Sen. Larry E. Craig, Idaho Republican, said
                  it is a known factor that a certain percentage of
                  votes is discarded during machine counts. Mr.
                  Craig said every effort is made to create
                  uniformity and fairness in counting votes, but it
                  does not mean every vote can be counted.
                       "While that is frustrating to some, it has
                  never been that way," Mr. Craig said.
                       Mr. Craig said the quick reaction by Mr.
                  Gore's campaign to ask for recounts indicates
                  they were prepared in advance of Election
                  Day to ask for hand counts in heavily
                  Democratic counties to swing a close vote.
                       "This was a well thought-out and planned
                  strategy in advance. When Al Gore said he
                  would do anything and everything to win this
                  election, we must take him at his word," Mr.
                  Craig said.
                       Contacted by The Washington Times,
                  several secretary of state offices said they do
                  not keep numbers on how many ballots are
                  thrown out after an election, but "rejected
                  ballots are a normal occurrence," said a
                  spokeswoman in the Alabama secretary of
                  state's office.
                       Secretaries of state across the country have
                  formed a committee to study election-reform
                  issues raised in this election, said Leslie
                  Reynolds, spokeswoman for the National
                  Association of Secretaries of State.
                       "We've been looking at these issues for a
                  long time. Now, everyone is interested," Miss
                  Reynolds said.
                       Every vote would count "if we get rid of
                  the rickety machines," said Al Felzenberg,
                  visiting fellow at the Heritage Foundation.
                       "Voting should not be a mysterious or
                  burdensome process," Mr. Felzenberg said.



[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 11-28-2000).]

Offline Nash

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2000, 10:43:00 AM »
What would be the point in recounting every vote in the entire US? The reason it's happening in Florida is because there is a margin smaller than what you'd see in some school board election in Waco Texas. In the states where a recount *could* make a difference, like New Mexico for example, a recount *was* done. That's why there are manditory recount laws. So I'm not sure what this person's point is.

Offline Ripsnort

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2000, 10:49:00 AM »
The point, I believe, is: Gore protrayed in his speech last night that "Every vote should be counted"...but he failed to add "In these predomint Democratic Counties"...for diplomatic reasons, he should have stated that every vote in the state of FLA should be re-counted, but he does not want the 10,000 ballots thrown out in Duvall county counted since its predominently republican.

If every vote in FlA was recounted, Bush would win by 5000.

Offline Nash

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2000, 10:55:00 AM »
Oh - didn't he already offer to have every county in Florida recounted?

If every vote was counted, Gore would win by about 18,000. I'll split the difference with ya though Rip. He'd win by 13,000  

Offline Udie

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2000, 11:57:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nash:
What would be the point in recounting every vote in the entire US?


 Well, by not going for "every" vote it shows how big of a hipocrate he and everybody that supports him is.  That man would rather climb a tree and lie than stand on level ground and tell the truth, and you know it  

 HE'S A LIEING HIPOCRATE AND SO ARE 90% OF OTHER DEMOCRATS IN OUR GOVERNEMENT!!!!!!!!!!
 dick gephardt and tom dashald (s?) are #3 and #4 just after BC #1 and Gore #2  The 4 biggest liars in our nation.  I truely feel sorry for you if you believe their lies...


udie

Offline Nash

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2000, 12:43:00 PM »
Let me see if I've got this straight.

Dick gephardt is # 3, behind Dashald and Clinton who are #2 and.... no wait. Gore is #2, ahead of Clinton 's #1 to Dahsald and Gephardt's #3 and #4 respectiveley. Doh! I mean Dahshald is #3, ahead of Barbera Boxer's #4 who trails Clinton's #2, behind #1's Al Sharpton.

Damn this is confusing!

Offline Mighty1

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2000, 12:52:00 PM »
I'd like to know where you get your numbers from Nash?

Just because the Demos say there were 19,000 Demo votes not counted doesn't mean it is true.

Of those how many of those can you verify were for Bore?

If those votes were legal they would have been counted.

If there was a fair way to re-re-re-count these ballots I would say go for it but there is no way to do it so we should move on.
I have been reborn a new man!

Notice I never said a better man.

Offline Nash

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2000, 01:16:00 PM »
Hey - if Rip can pull numbers out of thin air, so can I  

Btw - with regard to the "re-re-recount"... I think that's mistaken. In Miami (for example) - a toejam-load of ballots were porked... They got fed into a machine, the machine then spit them out without registering a thing. Then in the automatic recount, these same ballots were fed back into a machine and (suprise!) they got spit out again without being registered. Then a hand-count was started (as per Florida law), and the fine folks there got about 20% through (157 net gain by Gore) and decided they'd rather be playing bridge instead...so they went home. These things haven't been counted *once*, let alone recounted or re-recounted.



[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 11-28-2000).]

Offline Toad

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2000, 01:20:00 PM »
Wait...

Democrats lie?

Republicans lie?

Man, I wish I had known this stuff before the election!!

 
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Ripsnort

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2000, 01:21:00 PM »
As I recall from news radio (Monday),I heard a father  speak concerning his son who was from Taiwan. I think he was his adopted son but the son was not a citizen of the US and the son was sent a primary and general election ballot due to him getting a driver's license.  Its illegal if they vote but the vote can be nullified. Father has an affidavit(sp) and the son did not vote.

So........
Phile Fortunato is down 150 votes in his
race and within the 1% so a recount is automatic if he asks for it.  He has heard about the above where non- US citizens are voting.  He's asking for a recount.He is also asking for a manual recount and verification of voters being registered as a US citizen or not.  Phil will pay for the manual recount himself as he has offered.  Cost and time will be alot but US future is in the balance. I think the Republican party will support it.

So -- I believe there would be no further
Election 2000 if fraudalent practices to
assist Gore were not done across the US and the 4-5 states that were real close.Florida would not be an issue.

If you say "we can't blame them and there is no proof", well, someone sent those ballots out and they have a party associated with them. It won't matter, its in the numbers.
You see the democrats in action now so
they would do anything.  They don't care.
e.g. Going to homeless shelters, going
to the prisons as mentioned nationally
because the Florida Democrat thought
that was such a great democratic technique.
Brokaw quieted down his democratic buddy the best he could but the guy was bragging about the great idea.  I saw it but no one has mentioned it since. Republicans would have been demonized.  I think most who are not registered also are naive and vote according to the news media so they vote democrat.

Big D for Duh..  Bias is evident there and the media dogs should be blamed and blamed again. This democratic state of Washinton probably won't do it and quiet the exposure.  It shouldn't.  Like Canada's election.They know who won before they go vote.



[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 11-28-2000).]

Offline Kieren

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2000, 01:33:00 PM »
Nash-

You are selectively applying law to suit your needs.

Stating it is Florida law to recount may or not be true, it is subject to interpretation. But you assume then they must supercede Florida law that gives a deadline, and another Florida law that allows the local canvassing boards discretion in deciding when a recount is necessary. That is pretty selective on your part.

You talk a pretty good story, hitting all the democratic talking points quite well.

The democratic canvassing boards decided on their own in Miami/Dade not to proceed not once, but twice. They didn't feel the sample they took warranted a recount, and it is within their legal discretion to make that call. PBC decided on a standard that was reasonable to count dimpled ballots, as was their legal discretion. In both cases the DNC tried to override them.

Now Bois is forced to take this case back to the FSC to get them to basically reverse a decision they made last week, that is, that local canvassing boards have the right to decide for themselves whether or not to count, count dimples, and what standards to set. I seriously doubt they want to see him again, as he made them look like a bunch of tulips for blindly accepting his Illinois dimple ballot precedent without verifying the case themselves. They came out of that decision looking exactly like the partisans they are.

Go ahead, cite the 157 Miami/Dade votes that were already counted. To be fair, also mention the highly-Cuban precincts that were skipped, and the fact that the canvassing board intentionally got the 97 highest democratic precincts first, then decided time would run out, then decided to look at the undervotes- sure looks like an attempt to suppress votes to me. That "riot" you heard about was a mix of republicans and media that knew the Miami/Dade canvassing board was trying to pull a fast one. It was illegal for them to attempt to count those votes without observers, which is exactly what they tried to do.

Gore does not want every vote, and needs to drop that talking point. It doesn't sell, and makes him even more unbelievable than he already is- no small feat.

Offline CavemanJ

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2000, 01:34:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nash:
Let me see if I've got this straight.

Dick gephardt is # 3, behind Dashald and Clinton who are #2 and.... no wait. Gore is #2, ahead of Clinton 's #1 to Dahsald and Gephardt's #3 and #4 respectiveley. Doh! I mean Dahshald is #3, ahead of Barbera Boxer's #4 who trails Clinton's #2, behind #1's Al Sharpton.

Damn this is confusing!

Sounds like a typical democratic/Goron response, trying to cloud the issue.  Specially when what Udie wrote was easy enough to understand.


Offline Fury

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2000, 01:56:00 PM »
The point is, Mr. Gore says 'every vote must count'.

However, his hypocritical actions show that 'every vote must count' is all a bunch of words that he does not believe.  'Every vote counts' only applies to Florida.  Accross the U.S., millions of votes have been tossed out and not counted for similar reasons that they were tossed in Florida.  Mr. Gore does not care about the rights of those Americans elsewhere (who have been disenfranchised by votes not counted) because Florida is what will win the election.

Mr. Gore's idea of selective importance only when it matters to himself is pretty sad IMHO and a slap in the face to anyone with who can see through his big talk.

You know he won't stop until he wins.  He's already stated that the court will decide who the president is, and not the certified election results.

Fury

Offline Nash

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2000, 02:33:00 PM »
Rip:

 
Quote
I believe there would be no further Election 2000 if fraudalent practices to assist Gore were not done across the US and the 4-5 states that were real close
- Rip

Erhm, you say that because some kid in Taiwan got sent a ballot (on which he could either have voted for Gore OR Bush) that there were fraudulent practices to assist Gore across the US"? Is that your case?

Oh wait. You say that we can't prove who sent that ballot out in the first place. Good point. We can't. What's your case again?

What we DO know, however, is that for 10 days, three Republicans were camped out in some office filling in missing overseas ballot information. If you called this fraudulent I would tend to agree.


Kieren:

 
Quote
You are selectively applying law to suit your needs.

Well of *course* I am.  

If I'm going to be an advocate for my side, why should I help you guys out? You *also* selectively use the facts. That is fine. That is debate.

For example, you say that Miami/Dade didn't feel the sample they took warranted a recount. In fact it's the opposite. They extrapolated a significant Gore gain by that sample, and chose to start the hand recount in earnest. It was only after the court came back with a deadline that was impossible to meet that they chose to halt it.


Cave:

 
Quote
Sounds like a typical democratic/Goron response, trying to cloud the issue.

Sounds like you still trying to pretend that you have something relevant to add  



Offline CavemanJ

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Gore wants "Every vote counted"...or does he?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2000, 08:39:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nash:
Hey - if Rip can pull numbers out of thin air, so can I    

Btw - with regard to the "re-re-recount"... I think that's mistaken. In Miami (for example) - a toejam-load of ballots were porked... They got fed into a machine, the machine then spit them out without registering a thing. Then in the automatic recount, these same ballots were fed back into a machine and (suprise!) they got spit out again without being registered. Then a hand-count was started (as per Florida law), and the fine folks there got about 20% through (157 net gain by Gore) and decided they'd rather be playing bridge instead...so they went home. These things haven't been counted *once*, let alone recounted or re-recounted.
B]

Another of the Goron's popular myths.  You said it yourself, they were run through the machines, not once, but TWICE.  They WERE counted.  For whatever reason no vote was recorded for the presidential race.  The infamous "undervotes".

Is it so hard to believe that there may be 10,000 people in one place who chose to NOT vote for president because they support niether of the candidates?  I find that pretty easy to believe, especially with all the people I've seen/heard say they aren't going to vote because they want to send a message.

Maybe these 10,000 voters chose to only vote in the congressional/local races because they felt that thier candidates in those races were worthy.
Hell Toad has said throughout this fiasco that the only reason he voted Bush was because Bush is more likely to appoint supreme court justices that Toad would agree with.  Had Toad felt that both Bush and Snore would make the same asinine choices aboutjustices as everything else he might well have cast an "undervote" ballot.  'Course this is a hypothetical example using a person who has clearly stated his position time and again, and only he could say for sure  

Nash damn near anything I have to say is more relevant in this particular issue than anything you have to say.  I live here, you're an outsider looking in.  So take your smug foriegner's opinion of my opinions of MY country, roll'em up, and smoke'em and get all choked up mate  

BTW, I'm sure Goron would like to have you as a poster boy, you seem to spout the Dem party line better than most Dems I know.