Thoughts about WW2OL and respect......

[J_A_B]

For no reason, I was just thinking about WW2OL and how some people have claimed that they shouldn't make that game because it does a disservice to vetrans of that war.

I always thought "How stupid that belief is.  There's nothing wrong with a game".  

Anyway, like I said I was thinking about that for no apparent reason, when I recalled that during the Gulf War some compaines made trading cards of Scud Missles and M-16's and stuff.....and I remember how a majority of the country felt that was "disrespectful".  Even I felt that was wrong.  Why?  Because it was profiting at the expense of our soldiers suffering.

Then, my mind made a connection.  If making trading cards is wrong, then how is it acceptable to literally make a game out of the hell WW2 was?  When you think about it this way, WW2OL really is disrespectful to vetrans.  

Now, I'm not saying that I think WW2OL should be abandoned.  My point is that the idea of WW2OL being disrespectful isn't as stupid as I thought it was.  Actually, I realise it makes a lot of sense.

I wouldn't mind seeing a 30-second screen every time you start that game, which cannot be avoided, thanking vetrans for their sacrifices during the war--a built in tribute, so to speak--a 30-second moment of silence for the vetrans of WW2 any time someone starts the game.  Something to remind the players of the gravity of what their re-creating.  Something that would keep WW2OL from falling into the pit of profiting at the expense of the vets.

Now, I'm posting this here because..well..this is the off-topic place for things and I don't really want to risk posting this in the WW2OL feeding frenzy boards (I do not even have a BB account there).  If someone else wishes to re-post this, you're free to.  It's just some thoughts of mine that I figured I'd share.

A BIG <<S>> to WW2 vets.

[miko2d]

 What about the movies and books? How many of those start as a non-profit undertaking?
 Sales of the fasionable military style clothing?
 If you look hard enough, you can find people making money of everything. Also things done with the best intentions also show disrespect if they are tasteless. But here we come to the question of taste.
 I have not seen the trading cards but I can imagine popularizing the military in that way may increase respect to them, not lessen it.

 In this country anyone can make money any way he/she chooses as long as it's legal and our soldiers are fighting to protect just that. That includes all sleasy and immoral trades as well as respected ones.

 A 30 second screen thanking veterans that cannot be avoided is the worst thing that can be suggested - in a few days people will be swearing impatiently and in their minds veterans will be associated with very negative emotions.
 Our veterans do not need respect that has to be force-fed to us - it is completely opposite to moral values of our free society - the method, not the respect, of course.

 A tastefull button bringing up some info about the veterans would be a nice touch.

miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 03-15-2001).]

[Mickey1992]

"A BIG <<S>> to WW2 vets."

I agree.

"...the idea of WW2OL being disrespectful isn't as stupid as I thought it was."

I disagree.  It *IS* as stupid as you thought it was.  Educating the uneducated about war and history is always a good thing.  It doesn't matter if it's "South Pacific", "Saving Private Ryan", or WW2OL.  Yes, many young people will play AH or WW2OL and not think about the time period these planes/vehicles were used in or the war, but any amount of education is better than nothing.

Where does it end?  Are we to pretend that wars don't happen?  Should we ban simulations?  Should we ban replica items and clothing?  Should we ban reruns of M*A*S*H?

The NAACP recently protested a Civil War re-enactment in Lake Charles, Louisiana citing racism and hatred as reasons.  Does anyone want to see this mode of thinking taken to this extreme?  Are we going to ban airshows that feature aircraft used in battle?


------------------
Mickey
3./JG2

[J_A_B]

I am not advocating banning anything.  Indeed, I made myself very clear that I was against banning things.  It seems I have been misunderstood.

I am not in favor of becomming an Ostrich--that is, I do not think we should pretend these things didn't happen.  We shouldn't stick our heads in the probverbial sand.

But isn't that what WW2OL is doing?

There will be no Swasticas, no Nazis, no A-bombs, no Holocaust, no death marches, no murder of innocent families, NONE of the things which made WW2 the hell it was.  There won't be any mass graves, nobody will have to watch his best friend die in his arms while listening to the enemy laughing about it, and you can turn it off any time you want.

How is that education?  If WW2OL was someone's sole WW2 education, then they'd believe the idiots who claim the Holocaust was made up by the Jews to get the world to feel sorry for them.  It can be argued that WW2OL is trivializing the worst period in human history.

Now, I don't think they should try to add any of those things to the game.  But the Rats shouldn't just act like it didn't happen because it is inconvienient for them.  THAT is the attitude that you and I both agree on--history shouldn't be ignored.

Miko2D's suggestion was much better than mine.  They should link their game to a real history of the war.  And yes, I mean a REAL history, none of this P.C. revisionist garbage that is becomming way too common.

Basically, I'm saying that the idea of WW2OL being disrespecful has some merit.  But they're wrong in saying the game should be shut down.  The real solution is to ensure the game makes an effort NOT to trivialize the sacrifices that were made.

My opinions, of course.

J_A_B

[Tac]

IMO, any ww2 (or insert any war here) game/film/etc should at least have a 5 second screen dedicating the product to those who fought, suffered and died in it. No need to make a big fuss about it, but it should be there.

If you want to bypass the 5 second dedication/memorial, press ESC.

In all honesty, I would like to see MANY more WW2 movies in the market at this moment. We are at the crucial moment in history where it is becoming HARD to find a WW2 vet or someone who can say "I was there". In a decade they will all be gone and history will begin its revisionist roadkill. Make the coming generations aware of the horrors their grandparents went through and NEVER let them forget, or their sons may have to re-live the horror.

[Cobra]

Is this an advert for WWIIOnline??

Cobra

[miko2d]

 

Originally posted by Tac:
In all honesty, I would like to see MANY more WW2 movies in the market at this moment. We are at the crucial moment in history where it is becoming HARD to find a WW2 vet or someone who can say "I was there".

 I have not participated in WWII but unless the nature of man and war has changed drastically from 40s to 80s, you can be assured that  movies do not protray the war realistically.
 I am sure the veterans would be offended if they expected the movies to be anything other then entertainment and making money.
 Of course they no more expect realism from a war movie then a programmer should expect from a computer-related movie - in all those 50 years the general public still has not go a clue that it is not a computer but software that does all those things.

 There are quite a few good reasons why a realistic protrayal of war would not make a good movie.
 To start with, it's 99.9% boredom and 0.1% of confusion - who would want to see that.
 Then a nature of a person changes quite a bit and not to the good when he/she is a soldier - who would want to show that.
 Again, the main thing in war is to stay unnoticeable as much as possible. How do you film that realistically?
 I could go on forever just about rteh realizm, but what about politics?

 Which soldiers would you honor in the dedication? All the participants? Or just those of a country where the game is sold? History is very controversial, you know.

 Honoring the veterans should be a private affair or at least not linked to other things. A reference to the knowlege about that is tastefull and non-intrusive.

 About teh revsionist BS - there is no single view of history now - quite a few different ones.
 As for relieving the horror of the war, the last war was one of many and people never learned any lessons from previous ones.

miko

[MrSiD]

Because WW2OL is trying to advance historically, maybe it would be a cool idea to post, as time advances, historic news and situations of the real war as news flashes..
Those flashes could be downloaded when starting a new time period as an introduction to the oncoming mission.

It would certainly add a lot of immersion like a good storyboard always does, plus it would educate the young of the advancement of the real event.

Those news flashes could contain small pieces of authentic footage, showing the glamorous side of army and then showing the despair and suffering of the innocent.

Could make a lot of people think a bit differently when playing..

[Saintaw]

I must have missed somethng... where is WWIIOL irrespectfull ? By moddeling WWII aircraftes, solders, boats !.... hey, wait a minute, we're doing this here everyday !

Sorry, don't make me stay awake with remorse at nigh, I'm playing a game, I like it... that's it!

<shrug>

------------------
MASS/SAW
 
click  HERE for info on III./JG 5 Eismeer

"I am distracted when I talk to my privates".
Wobble


[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 03-16-2001).]

[AKDejaVu]

Most of the people that feel this is a disservice to their service also believe that Vietnam veterans shouldn't have been considered for the VFW.  Not until the numbers started to diminish as all the WWI vets died off and more dues were needed.

I say a game is a game.  People play WW2 games today much like these people played cowboys and indians when they were young.

AKDejaVu

[Mickey1992]

J_A_B,  I did not mean to say that YOU wanted wanted to have products/events banned, I meant to illustrate this mode of thinking taken to an extreme.  Forgive me for not making that more clear.

Unfortunately, the knowlege that most people have about war is provided by the entertainment industry (myself included, veterans obviously excluded).  Yes, Saving Private Ryan is more educational than Bettle Bailey, but it still is just entertainment with many historical liberties taken for the sake of time/profit/lazyness.

I think that the "thank the veterans" idea may not work because of the international issues.  But I do like the idea of authentic multimedia etc.  Rowan's Battle of Britain does that (the game sucks though).

But then again these perpetual online simulations really don't have a storyline or "end".  How would this idea be implimented into AH?  They could provide links to web sites somewhere, but I do not want to have to wait to download a 3MB movie about the history of the 109.  I could see this working for store-bought products maybe.

Yes it would be nice if more young people appreciated the sacrifice the veterans made during the war(s).  It would be great if they read more, watched the History Channel more, and spoke to veterans more.  But if nothing else, maybe playing a war/flight simulation will make them remember where France and Germany are on a map.

[J_A_B]

That's the beauty of AH--it's normal gameplay (excluding player-created scenarios) doesn't attempt to re-create any past war.  We are fighting a war between chess pieces.  AH is no more a re-creation of WW2 than the "Soccer War" was.

Now, I don't think everything ever made should be educational.  Indeed, making things educational often destroys any entertainment involved.  Modern cartoons all suck, because they are "educational".

But, there are some things that can be done.  Every war movie I've ever seen at least acknowledged the suffering that took place, if only for 10 seconds.  I am just hoping that WW2OL doesn't sanitize out the bad parts of WW2 in the name of "political correctness" or "gameplay".  They don't need to revolve the game around education--but they should make some small effort to hammer home the fact that the REAL war was no game.  

I especially liked the idea of, in their news updates, mentioning what happened in the real war.  A column of "on this day in year XX" would be plenty to keep things in perspective.

No, this thread isn't an advertisement for WW2OL.  I just wanted to start an honest discussion    

[Fury]

I look at WWIIOL as a form of entertainment and not as a service or disservice to anyone who fought there.

Why pick on WWIIOL?  What's so special about it?  If WWIIOL is a disservice to veterans, then why isn't WB and AH a disservice to WWII veterans?

Fury

[Brazos]

Bingo Fury,

WWIIOL is a time machine allowing you to use the period equipment on the period terrain, but with modern tactics. Um... just like AH, AW, WB, FA, TK and every other wwii sim. NO politics. I know some would like to use it for their agenda, but it's about fun, not history. Just like every scenario we've flown for the last decade, it's big fun!

Braz

[Kratzer]

This has been said, but I the most people know very, very little about most of history, including WWII.  Anything that gets people interested is a good thing in my book.

Handled tastefully, that is...