G-14 bigger tailplane

[agent 009]

What was this done? what effect on maneuverability-control would this have?

[bunch]

no effect, because rudder pedals were enlarged proportionally

[Krusty]

LMAO

funny shyte

No, the bigger tailplane was to counter the ever-increasing torque from more and more powerful engines (consider the airframe was designed for the DB600, and the DB605 was just strapped to the same mounts). Also at alt I think it helped provide more surface area in the thinner air.

[Meyer]

IIRC the bigger tail was introduced after the dive trials with the 109F...so I guess was meant to improve stability at high speed.

[Kurfürst]

Yep, to improve directional stability, especially with growing max. speed of the 109, and it`s low directional stability, this was neccesary.

For manouveribility, the enlarged rudder was certainly more powerful, and iirc niklas? said something about how the enlarged rudder improves roll rate under circumstances.

[gripen]

While the tall tail improved directional stability the main reason for it was the to decrease the dutch roll phenomena at high altitudes and at high speed (dives as Meyer noted). Here in Finland all Bf 109Gs were standardized to the short tail after war despite some planes had metal tall tail.

BTW new "Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen lehti" 2/2005 contains the propeller efficiency and level speed part of the Jukka Raunio's article serie on performance of the Bf 109G. Interesting read for all finish speaking people interested about performance of the piston engined fighters.

gripen

[agent 009]

Thanx all. I had guessed the taller tail was for better directional stability. The tailplane though was what had got my curiosity.

Using wood was done as metals were getting scarce so the story goes. The wood tail weighed more & was reported to be more stable. Less vibration I surmise.

Dora had wider tail. Perhaps to counter flick over problem? Or simply for better directional stability?

Some Dora's got the 152 tail near the end.

Back to tailplane. Krusty torque & more surface area comments make most sense. Now with bigger tailplane, one would assume bigger elevators as well correct? If so, this would also to a small degree effect turn rate. Thoughts?

[Crumpp]

The FW-190 never had a "flick over problem" and the Dora was the slowest roller of the series.

The tall tail was leftover from the "hohenjager 2" testing.  It was necessary for the altered CG with the longer engine, centrally mounted (motorkanone) weapons, and improved the very high altitude yaw stability of the Ta-152 series.  

It is not a serial modification of the FW-190D9.  It is found only on the Ta-152 series and later mark Dora's (D-11 for example) which have the characteristic longer motor with hub mounted weapons requiring the modified tail.

All the best,

Crumpp

[agent 009]

Dora had same wing as A series. Have not as yet seen any real data to suggest it was slowest roller. Should be the same. Same wing, same controls, same roll. Unless wider tail somehow affected roll.

[agent 009]

here is the "flick over" problem described.


Hermann Krafft’s I./JG.51 pilots learned about the airplanes vicious stall characteristics. Below 200 kilometers per hour (127 MPH), the port wing would abruptly fall off. In a tight turn, it could flick over and go into a spin. Properly controlled and with sufficient altitude, a spin could even offer an escape; no Soviet plane could match it.

 From this site.

Focke-Wulf Fw 190  
... But when the engine did fail, the Fw 190 had the gliding ability of a brick ... In a tight turn, it could flick over and go into a spin ...
http://www.acepilots.com/german/fw190.html - More from this site

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[Crumpp]

Yes Agent it had the same wing.  It had a different CG however and the pilots who flew it tell me it did not roll as well as the FW-190A.

The Dora 9 did not have a taller tail.  At least not any serial production Dora 9's.
Tail on the Dora was the same as the FW-190A series.

Your talking about the aggrevated stall characteristics which were about the same as the P 51D.

According to both Oscar Boesch, Heinz Orlowski, and the FW-190 aileron adjustment regulations, a properly adjusted FW-190A will give you some warning.  Recovery was immediate which is actually better than the P51D which took between 5-6 turns to recover.

Dora had wider tail. Perhaps to counter flick over problem? Or simply for better directional stability?

Tied to yaw wise stability it seems you were implying a roll stability problem which did not exist.  The FW-190A's and FW-190D9 roll was fast and stable.  The Dora's was just a tad slower than the Antons.

All the best,

Crumpp

[agent 009]

Wider, not taller tail. It was made a few inches wider, or perhaps longer is the word.

I have seen a photo of Dora's with the 152 tail in a book. very few got these it did say.

Yes Dora had diferent cg. Don't get how this affects roll. How many Dora pilots have you spoken to?

[Crumpp]

I have spoken with three.

I spent this past weekend going thru crates of FW-190 parts in Norfolk Va for the Foundation and Gosshawk.    Google "Yellow 10".

You can find all kinds of pictures of "Doras'" with the taller or wider tail or however you want to split the hair.

They are not Dora 9's.  They are rare pictures of a few prototype 152/Dora's or some of the few D-13/R11's and D-12/R11's that made it to the Geschwaders in the last weeks of the war.

According to Focke Wulf, no Dora 9's were serial produced with the Ta-152 series tail.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Krusty]

"Back to tailplane. Krusty torque & more surface area comments make most sense. Now with bigger tailplane, one would assume bigger elevators as well correct? If so, this would also to a small degree effect turn rate. Thoughts?"

Actually, the PORT stabilizer/elevator (I believe it was port) is thicker than the STARBOARD one. Why? Increase lift (in which direction I can't remember) to help counter torque. There were lots of little things like that. I think the spitfire's off-sides radiator may have been for a similar reason (wild guess)

[GRUNHERZ]

There are pictures of D9s with Ta152 tails. They were extremely rare but 3 are known  to exist, the most famous being W.Nr. 500647 and it is cerainly a D9. Another is 500645.

And I have never seen a D11/12/13 with a Ta152 tail, except once in a model. I'd love to see this because IMO it would be the best looking 190D.