Author Topic: Activist Judges at it again  (Read 807 times)

Offline bj229r

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Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2005, 11:35:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash


"The classic example of conservative inconsistency remains Bush v. Gore. Not only did the court's conservative bloc trample on the Florida state courts and stop the vote counting - it declared its ruling would not be a precedent for future cases. How does Justice Scalia explain that decision? In a recent New Yorker profile, he is quoted as saying, with startling candor, that "the only issue was whether we should put an end to it, after three weeks of looking like a fool in the eyes of the world." That, of course, isn't a constitutional argument - it is an unapologetic defense of judicial activism. "


I call BS.


This better explains the FLA debacle:
 
Phyllis Schlafly (archive)
(printer-friendly version)

January 3, 2001

Separating spin from reality in Bush vs. Gore

Al Gore's supporters and their allies in the media continue to falsify the facts about Florida in order to try to delegitimize George W. Bush's election. To make sure that spin does not replace reality, let's examine some of these myths. Myth: The U.S. Supreme Court decision in Bush vs. Gore proves that, contrary to their oft-proclaimed opposition to judicial activism, conservatives really favor it when it suits their partisan causes.

In fact, someone (thank you, U.S. Supreme Court) had to stop the runaway Florida Supreme Court that gave us two textbook cases on the evils of judicial activism. That Florida court tried to rewrite Florida election law to assist Gore by overruling lower Florida courts, changing statutory deadlines and creating new recount procedures.

Myth: Because of their customary support of states' rights, Justice Antonin Scalia and the other Supreme Court conservatives were inconsistent and partisan in overturning the Florida Supreme Court's interpretation of Florida law.

Scalia is a legal textualist who consistently prefers to rely on the actual statutory text rather than judicial interpretations, political intent or penumbrae. The various Gore recount schemes were clearly far outside what the Constitution and the statute provide, and it was absolutely consistent for Scalia and the other majority justices to reverse such an unprecedented judicial rewrite of the law.

Myth: John Paul Stevens attacked the conservatives on the U.S. Supreme Court as being partisan.

Contrary to the spin added by most commentators, Stevens' much-quoted criticism was about the Florida judges, not the U.S. Supreme Court justices. What Stevens actually said was that the loser in this election is "the nation's confidence in the (state) judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law."

Stevens is absolutely right; we don't have confidence in judges deciding an election. The nation, indeed, was shocked that the high Florida court could act in such a blatantly partisan manner in trying to throw the election to Gore.

Myth: The U.S. Supreme Court was sharply divided 5-4 over whether the Florida Supreme Court did the right thing.

In fact, all nine Justices reversed the first Florida Supreme Court decision. In the second U.S. Supreme Court decision, none of the justices expressed much support for what the Florida Supreme Court did.

Although the majority reversing the second Florida Supreme Court decision was 5 to 4, the dissenters all expressed concern about the varying counting standards. The most positive comment about the Florida Supreme Court was Stevens saying, "It did what courts do."

Myth: The Supreme Court held that the Florida statutory standard for manual examination of ballots violates equal protection rights.

Even the Florida Supreme Court repeated this myth. In fact, the U.S. Supreme Court made no ruling against the statutory counting methods, but only ruled that the judicially ordered 11th-hour partial manual recount violated constitutional equal protection rights.

Myth: Gore offered to have a manual recount of the entire state of Florida.

In fact, neither Gore nor his lawyers ever asked for a statewide manual recount of any kind. Gore did once suggest that he meet with Bush and make some sort of private deal for a recount, but Gore's lawyers never asked the election officials or the courts for a statewide recount.

Myth: Bush was hypocritical to oppose counting dimpled chads in Florida after he had pushed through a law in Texas to count them.

Three counties in Texas use punch cards and the law does say that dimpled chads can be counted in some circumstances. But, the law was passed in 1993, before Bush was governor and, according to a Washington Post investigation, no other state counts dimpled chads.

Myth: The Florida standard for a legal vote is based on the intent of the voter.

In fact, a legal vote in Florida is one that is counted by the statutory counting methods in effect. The statute mentions intent of the voter only in cases where a damaged ballot is not machine readable or if a machine malfunctions.

Myth: Not all legal votes were counted.

In fact, the so-called undervote ballots were machine-read twice and all lawful votes were recorded. No actual machine error was demonstrated; the machines functioned as intended.

Myth: Gore never got the manual recounts that he was entitled to under Florida law.

Florida law does not require manual recounts. It only says that a manual recount is one of three alternatives in the protest phase in case the counting machines malfunction.

Myth: Gore was entitled to contest the election if a more accurate counting method could be found.

Gore was entitled to sue in the Florida circuit court to "correct an alleged wrong," but Gore never alleged any wrongdoing. He only had a theory that another counting methodology might have been better for him in some cases, but that is no argument for a judge to change the methodology; at best, it might be an argument for the Legislature to revise the law before the next election.

Myth: Bush delayed the proceedings until time ran out for a recount.

The biggest delay was the 12-day certification delay that was imposed by the Florida Supreme Court at Gore's request. That delay, as well as the fact that Gore had no real case, prevented Gore from completing his protest of the election.

©2000 Copley News Service
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Offline Silat

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Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2005, 01:02:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
really?  seems that it is the left who are unwilling to draw the line at any abuse of power.   Like I say.. we vote a proposistion in and they tell us it was not legal.   lazs


Their job is to decide whether laws are legal. But of course you knew that.
If the courts decide a law is illegal then the legislature can make a new law. It is part of the checks and balance of our system. In general our system if fine. The few fanatics are making it look bad.
+Silat
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"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Raider179

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Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2005, 01:19:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Leslie
I wouldn't brag about coming over on the Mayflower.  The way I heard it,  the Puritans were kicked out of England as neer-do-wells.  They didn't come over here to escape tyranny, but were exiled here.



Les


Man those are strange history books you got a hold of. They were seperatists not puritans. lol and they werent kicked out or exiled, they left to holland and then came back to england on their way through to America.

While this doughty trader and hundreds like her etched their wakes in the sea lanes of northern Europe, the still young Church of England had seen the development of various schismatic groups who considered Anglicanism more Popish than Protestant. Puritans believed Anglicanism could be reformed from within, while Separatists believed in neither the authority of the Church of England nor, in spiritual matters, the monarch as head of the Church. In 1607, several groups of Separatists managed to move their "unlawful religious gatherings" to the Netherlands, but ten years later they were eager to settle in the New World, under English Crown, if not religious, authority.

Direct appeals to the Company for Virginia, which had established the Jamestown colony in 1609, came to nothing. Mayflower's charter was eventually arranged through the Merchant Adventurers, which included representatives of the Virginia Company, the London Company, and the Plymouth Company, all of which could make land grants in the Americas. The dissenters worked most closely with Thomas Weston and John Pierce, who had secured a patent from the Virginia Company to settle within its domains, in "the neighborhood of Hudsons River in the northern part of Virginia."

The Separatists sailed from Leyden in Speedwell for a rendezvous with Mayflower at Southampton towards the end of July 1620, and the ships sailed in company on August 5, with ninety Pilgrims aboard Mayflower and thirty more in Speedwell. The latter was in no condition to make a transatlantic passage, and after her leaks forced the two ships into first Dartmouth and then Plymouth, the crews realized they could use only Captain Jones's larger ship. Overcrowding was alleviated somewhat when about eighteen or twenty of the company decided to stay in England, and Mayflower finally sailed from Plymouth on September 6 with 50 men, 20 women, and 34 children, about half of them Separatists and the others members of the Church of England. (William Bradford was the first person to refer to the Separatists as Pilgrims, in 1630, by which he meant only that they had traveled in and to foreign lands. The first child born to a woman in the group after landing at Cape Cod was named Peregrine, or "pilgrim.")

Offline Raider179

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Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2005, 01:22:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Leslie
A judge may make a decision according to what mood he's in that day.  At least with the legislature some consensus must take place.  It is patently unfair for one judge to decide irrevocably what happens to affect the Constitution.  The Bill of Rights limits what our Congress can do.   The constitution grants legislative bodies of the States authority over what is not specifically mentioned as powers of the Federal govt.

There was a civil war fought over this.  Though there has been a balance achieved in this country concerning civil rights, it was achieved through savvy politicians and not omnipotent judges.  I think judges have too much power when they interpret the constitution according to changing standards in morality.  This is why the Ten Commandments are important symbols of wise judgement, as they were given by God and are unchanging through time.  I add that back in biblical times, judgement was much more liberally interpreted by religious judges than by those appointed by kings.


Les


1)Congress has the right to Amend the Constitution.

2)not gonna even get into the whole 10 commandments issue as it would side-track this thread.

3)Got any more info on the "judgement was more liberally interpreted by religious judges than by those appointed by kings" ??? Kinda curious what you are basing that on.

Offline Lazerus

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Re: Re: Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2005, 07:05:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash


What a *******, if ya don't mind me saying so.


I couldn't get past the 3rd post without responding. The absence of any examples, among the many, of liberal activism practiced by judges in your rant against conservative judges renders your argument DOA. You have no leg to stand on, no moose to hold, no Kennedy to support you. Your own bias is so glaringly obvious that it eliminates any chance of debate or conversation on the matter.

But, you are 'Nash'. It seems to be expected.

Offline Nash

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Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2005, 08:09:43 AM »
Oh cry me a river.

Offline Nash

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Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2005, 08:40:44 AM »
More examples (like they're not everywhere):

The decision in Dred Scot v Sanford striking down the Missouri Compromise and holding that blacks could never be citizens, the gutting of the Fourteenth Amendment's Privileges or Immunities Clause in the Slaughterhouse Cases less than five years after the Amendment was ratified; striking down the Civil Rights Act of 1875, which was passed by the very same Congress that passed the Fourteenth Amendment, in the Civil Rights Cases; the creation of the police power jurisprudence of the Lochner Era which selectively struck down labor laws that conservatives didn't like; striking down the federal income tax in the Pollock case; reading the words "other states" in the Eleventh Amendment to mean "other states or same state" in Hans v. Louisiana; the creation of the exception to Hans in Ex Parte Young when Hans turned out to prevent conservative judges from enjoining laws that were inconsistent with their laissez-faire values; the manufacture of federalism doctrines out of whole cloth in National League of Cities v. Usery; and, after National League of Cities was overruled, the creation of new federalism doctrines out of whole cloth to the same effect in Seminole Tribe and Alden v. Maine; the manufacture of the "congruent and proportional" test and its use to limit civil rights legislation in Kimel and Garrett; the continued development of commercial speech doctrine to limit government power to regulate advertising; and last but not least, the application of strict scrutiny to race conscious affirmative action in the face of evidence that the Fourteenth Amendment was not intended or written to enforce a colorblind Constitution.

Now what, Lazerus?

Offline bj229r

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Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2005, 08:43:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Oh cry me a river.


Thats right up there with.. "I know you are, but what am I?"

I'm not gonna flatly state that no examples of judicial activism on conservative side exist, but ya just dont HEAR of strict constuctionists on liberal side---it's been a conservative trait

Robert Bork didnt SAY Abortion was wrong, (though it's likely that is his personal belief)... but he DID say that Roe vs. Wade was TECHNICALLY bad law--(which isnt activism)-- if the country wanted it, congress ought have passed the law-- --(and thats how it should exit, if it ever does) the same can be said for countless other changes in our lives which the courts have hoisted upon us---busing, Title IX, quotas..
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Offline Nash

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Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2005, 08:55:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
Thats right up there with.. "I know you are, but what am I?"

I'm not gonna flatly state that no examples of judicial activism on conservative side exist, but ya just dont HEAR of strict constuctionists on liberal side---it's been a conservative trait.



No - it hasn't been a conservative trait. I realize how much some would like to think that it has. But just saying it doesn't make it so. Repeating it over and over as if it were self evident doesn't make it so.

As far as your "I know you are but what am I" comment, please re-read Lazerus' post and kindly tell me exactly how it is you think I could have responded differently.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2005, 08:57:07 AM »
silat.. yes I knew that about the judges but... I feel if a majority of the people all vote on a state amendment say... one to make english the state language... and it takes a year for the thing to work it's way up to a vote and then.... after 60 some odd percent of the people vote for it....

ONE (or circuit which amounts to one judge) man says no.... I don't realy like the aura of this one..  

I just feel that in those types of cases the supreme court should step in or... at least it should go to a state supreme court.

lazs

Offline Leslie

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Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2005, 11:35:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
1)Congress has the right to Amend the Constitution.

2)not gonna even get into the whole 10 commandments issue as it would side-track this thread.

3)Got any more info on the "judgement was more liberally interpreted by religious judges than by those appointed by kings" ??? Kinda curious what you are basing that on.



Well it is a confusing statement, and somewhat ignorant on my part and not the best choice of words.  I am not a judge or lawyer.  I'm  more like Nash, though he is probably more successful as an artist than I am, and a heck of a lot more fun to be around on this board.  

By "liberally interpreted" I meant that judges had room to consider the circumstances of each case brought before them on a one-to-one basis.  In other words there was room for leniency.  The law was based on the Ten Commandments, which was the first part of about 600 other laws, each of which was equal in importance to the first ten.  All modern western  law has the 10 as its roots.  

The topic of kings is somewhat complex.  Some were good and some had undesirable traits.  Probably the main difference was that the Hebrew kings were more accesable to the people, many going about business on the street along with everyone else.  Gentile kings were remote from the people in comparison.

Why is this relevant?  I believe it is because kings that held the law according to the commandments, and were in tune with people had a good sense of justice.  So yes, my statement was confusing and I apologize on that point.  Was painting kings with a wide brush.

The idea of mercy is not exclusive to the ten commandments, and is also present in pagan religions.  Human conscious inherently possesses a sense of merciful judgement because it is endowed in us by the creator.  There are good laws from pagan religions.   However conscious, right from wrong, without a focus can be misleading, thus the ten commandments serve as the focus.

This is not meant to sidetrack but by way of offering an explanation of my post.  I certainly don't want the sorts of "religious" judges that presided over the witch trials or the inquisition.  And I think concern for such is entirely justified.  I believe those people had another agenda than justice,






Les

Offline Nash

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Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2005, 06:36:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Leslie
I'm  more like Nash, though he is probably more successful as an artist than I am, and a heck of a lot more fun to be around on this board.   Les


Heck of a lot more fun to be around? Oh, I and a lot of folks here would definitely beg to differ. :)

And I think you're a fantastic artist. "Success" at art speaks less about the actual work than it does about every insignificant thing surrounding it.

Offline Raider179

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Activist Judges at it again
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2005, 11:37:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Leslie

 Human conscious inherently possesses a sense of merciful judgement because it is endowed in us by the creator.  There are good laws from pagan religions.   However conscious, right from wrong, without a focus can be misleading, thus the ten commandments serve as the focus.


Les [/B]


Whenever I hear this argument I feel like you are saying that Pre-10 commandments people had no morals. All religion did was write down what people already did. Merciful judgement from the almighty? Are you kidding? You go to hell for eternity if you have a doubt as to him or jesus. In the bible it says to stone your kids for lying. There are many more of these "merciful judgements" you mention. All I can say is cough cough inquisition and you will see zero compassion or mercy. How about noah's flood, again wiped out everything with zero mercy. Religion is not about mercy its about submission.