Author Topic: More wacky activist judges  (Read 513 times)

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2005, 10:01:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
If I had a choice between tossing bubba's salad or goin to 'worship services...'

hmmmmmmmmmm.

Now, that's a tuff choice.


And along comes Mr. Pragmatic to ruin all the philosphical phun.

:cool:

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2005, 10:09:52 AM »
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I don't see how God is involved in this case?  They have a choice.....not to go to church but some type of "worship service".  Not sure what that is but I might change my mind if all the "approved places" were churches of some sort.

Fine:

However, I'm pointing out that conservatives are being just as "activist"...but conservatives seem to think that it is OK to be activist if worship is involved.

Better?

BTW...what about my question:

"So if the criminal had been convicted for marijuana possesion and decides to "worship" as a Rastafarian, then it would be OK?"

Offline Charon

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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2005, 11:26:57 AM »
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If I had a choice between tossing bubba's salad or goin to 'worship services...'

hmmmmmmmmmm.

Now, that's a tuff choice.


I was given a similar choice in basic training on Sunday mornings: Go to church or extra clean up in the barracks area. I went to church a couple of times, then I pretended to go to church and found a "safe" place to sleep for most of the morning. Adapt and overcome (until some a hole looking for brownie points ratted me out. Fortunately, my Drill Sergeants though being a snitch was worse than my taking a nap here or there. I got 15 minutes of extra duty, maybe 20 push ups and rat boy didn't get that PFC was pining for :) I had to go back to the clean up after that though.)

Charon

Offline Flatbar

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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2005, 11:31:02 AM »
As long as the judge doesn't define what 'worship service' the offender must attend it would be ok for me. It would be great to say that the judge ordered me to wear my sheepskin chaps and devilish horns to a gathering of like minded godless heathens.

Check my sigline for more insight to my thoughts about religion :)

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2005, 12:27:40 PM »
Hello All,

I've ended up doing a lot of jail visits and of late have sat in on a few sentencing hearings. At least in our area, the majority of those arrested for drug possession (outside of the military) cut a deal with the DA for probation and Rehab. I sat in on a sentencing the other day where a repeat offender with prior convictions for prostitution, Heroin and Coke use who had been picked up for fighting over money for drugs with a guy in a wheelchair, plead guilty and was sentenced to 6 months probation and mandatory attendance at a local AA style rehab clinic. This practice is not unusual at all. Judges are bending over backwards not to add "non-violent" offenders to the already burgeoning prison population and are flailing around for any alternatives to doing so.

A few things to consider:

1) Hardly anyone "kicks" a serious drug addiction in prison. Drugs are plentiful behind bars and you are literally surrounded by people eager to deal to you. Added to that you generally have nothing better to do, and no compelling reason not to.

2) Most public rehab programs use some variation of the AA methodology which depends on the addict praying and depending upon a "higher power." Therefore, almost all of the mandated "secular" rehab programs have a religious or spiritual dimension. So folks, the courts have been mandating religious involvement for addicts for years.

Along those lines, studies have found that for those who have hit rock bottom in their addictions, a purely psychological approach is generally useless. "Look at what you are doing to yourself" doesn't resonate at that point, and a worldview of "Well after all you are just a more highly developed version of  pondscum in the brief interstasis between nothingness and death" doesn't exactly provide much incentive for not frying one's brain.

3) The most effective drug rehab programs with the lowest recidivism rates also tend to be the most self-consciously evangelical. They emphasize the necessary lifestyle, worldview and above all heart changes without which addicts return to their prior lives very quickly. Of all the drug programs I have had contact with, the most effective is a self-consciously Christian program called "Teen Challenge" and the least effective is a state detox program. Well actually, the least effective is just putting them in jail. I've never seen that even dry them out.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2005, 01:34:38 PM »
crow... I find it particularly hypocritical that liberal far left judges and those like yourself who support them are sending every single druggie/drunk as a matter of judicial policy to...  A program with it's center being God.

It allways the lefties not the conservatives that interpret any whisper of the "God" as being against "the seperation of church and state"   would seem to me that the lefties are the worse hypocrites and with the more far reaching policy in this case.

lazs

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2005, 04:03:59 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
crow... I find it particularly hypocritical that liberal far left judges and those like yourself who support them are sending every single druggie/drunk as a matter of judicial policy to...  A program with it's center being God.

Actually, I don't support those decisions either...I want to see criminals get jail time.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2005, 04:28:53 PM »
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Originally posted by crowMAW
Actually, I don't support those decisions either...I want to see criminals get jail time.


CrowMAW,

Just curious, what exactly is the point of putting drug addicts in jail for a few months? When:

A) They don't kick the habit

B) They instantly become virtually unemployable because of the felony conviction with jail time on their record

C) Their time in Criminal U just forges bad connections and equips them for harder crime when they get out, which they'll turn to because they still have a habit to support and no way to legitimately support it.

D) They'll be back again, and again, and again, until they either die or do something so serious that no DA will cut them a deal?

The above is really a better solution than sending them to a faith based rehab center? How much must we be willing to sacrifice on the altar of enforced secular humanism?

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2005, 11:51:26 PM »
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I don't see how God is involved in this case?  They have a choice.....not to go to church but some type of "worship service".  Not sure what that is but I might change my mind if all the "approved places" were churches of some sort.

I also don't see how the tax thing fits in holden.  These are convicted criminals.  They no longer have a choice to go to jail but are getting one anyways.


C'mon Gunny,  If you go to a 'worship service' what are you worshipping?  My guess is that a Cincinatti Reds game would not qualify, but maybe going to some sort of religious service where they talk about 'God'?  That is how God is involved in this case.

You said, "They no longer have a choice to go to jail..."  That is what the judge gave them... a choice... "do this or go to jail"

Just like you paying taxes.  Pay tax or go to jail.  As a citizen, you have that choice.

I do not see how it could be more clear.
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Offline CPorky

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« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2005, 01:06:24 AM »
As much as they can annoy me with their oppressive beliefs, 'born agains' are often former individuals who were on the wrong side of the law or, at the very least, morally bankrupt towards their own well-being or their families. Church seems to work for them and if these other individuals don't care to go, they can always just do the jailtime.

Then again, dealing with some of the more vocal born agains is akin to jailtime, maybe even cruel and unusual punishment. :)

Suffice to say, I'm not in favor of using church in place of punishment, but I can understand what the judge was trying to accomplish.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2005, 01:24:56 AM »
Seagoon, I'm too tired to look at your posts in the context of this thread or whatever (didn't read 'em all)... but I just wanted to say that you were bang-on dead accurate in everything you said in them. Not even a flag went up.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2005, 08:05:15 AM »
well... my take on it is that faith based rehabs like AA are being ruined by the judicial system.

Forceing people to go is against everything that makes AA work.  It also ruins the program for those who want to be there and could have otherwise recovered.   Anything government touches they muck up... it is a shame about AA.

As for jail not doing addicts any good... that is exactly correct but...

they can't smash the window on your car and do $1500 damage using a crowbar to get your radio out of the dash if they are in jail and...   There is probly some minor deterent effect to automatic jail time.

The guys who never stole for their habit won't be that kind of criminal when they get out.  Jail and prison are like drugs in that respect... they don't make you into anything you wouldn't nmormaly be... they just enhance your predelictions.

lazs

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2005, 06:42:29 PM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
C'mon Gunny,  If you go to a 'worship service' what are you worshipping?  My guess is that a Cincinatti Reds game would not qualify, but maybe going to some sort of religious service where they talk about 'God'?  That is how God is involved in this case.

You said, "They no longer have a choice to go to jail..."  That is what the judge gave them... a choice... "do this or go to jail"

Just like you paying taxes.  Pay tax or go to jail.  As a citizen, you have that choice.

I do not see how it could be more clear.


Yes but the choices you are refferring to is the choice to commit the crime.  In this case the offender has allready commited a crime.....IE he made his choice allready.  This judge is at least giving them a second chance.  If an athiest is that apalled by the "option" they can go to jail instead.....wich is were they would be going normally.....I say no harm no foul.