Author Topic: Richest Are Leaving Even the Rich Far Behind (Read 3172 times)

oboe · « **Reply #75 on:** June 07, 2005, 10:07:42 AM »

How do you assign a specific user fee for national defense? Our tanks, troops, radar systems, interceptor aircraft, etc provide more benefit to someone who is having a $100 million estate protected than to someone who rents a place at a trailer park, agreed? So the more possessions you have to protect, the more you should pay, right? That's the way insurance works, anyway.

Laz, the rich person gains benefit from the roads by more than simply driving on them. Let's say you are the CEO of Best Buy. Doesn't an excellent transportation system benefit you by allowing your customers and suppliers easy access to your retail outlets? In other words, many of the functions of the federal government aid and protect commerce in some way or other. And the wealthy derive a greated benefit from commerce than do the poor.

See my point?

Raider179 · « **Reply #76 on:** June 07, 2005, 10:14:54 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by oboe

Laz, the rich person gains benefit from the roads by more than simply driving on them. Let's say you are the CEO of Best Buy. Doesn't an excellent transportation system benefit you by allowing your customers and suppliers easy access to your retail outlets? In other words, many of the functions of the federal government aid and protect commerce in some way or other. And the wealthy derive a greated benefit from commerce than do the poor.

See my point?

I agree with this. Also feel that since rich people benefit more off the system, they should pay more to sustain it. How do they benefit more you might ask? Well they are rich aren't they?

oboe · « **Reply #77 on:** June 07, 2005, 10:18:25 AM »

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Originally posted by Shuckins
The graduated income tax system was created to "punish" the rich if they kept a large portion of their wealth for personal use, but NOT if they reinvested it in their corporate or business enterprises.

The current tax system encourages investment and economic growth, which benefits everyone.

Class envy is such an ugly thing. A pity that it has become a major tenet of a certain political movement.

I think its reasonable to be alarmed at the widening gap of wealth in this country without being consumed by class envy. I think a large, healthy middle class has a stabilizing affect on a nation - and conversely, lack of middle class leaving a small number of extremely wealthy and a large group of very poor people destabilizes a nation.

So to the extent that the middle class is being eroded I think the health of our nation is being damaged.

lazs2 · « **Reply #78 on:** June 07, 2005, 11:52:33 AM »

what are you talking about? an invasion by a foreign power is gonna effect eveyone equally... homeless is homeless.

the bombs drop on everyone.

As for benifiet of a good road system vs cost... the rich as a person, is not getting anything more or less for his dollar than you are... as for his bussiness.... and everyone elses.... we all pay on a use fee basis... 34 cents or so of every gallon of gas goes toward maintaining roads.... more than enough.. along with regestration fees and truck fees... the more you use the roads the more you pay.

also... everyone benifiets from goods getting to market... everything you buy is cheaper with good roads. You are paying less of of a burden than the rich but getting the benifiet.

you benifet by good roads getting to retail stores in that the goods become cheaper to you... They did all the work and you get the benifiet. you get a lot of road for what you are paying. The rich and the corporations pay the lions share.

To be fair... the rich will allways get richer unless you set a cieling and then confiscate wealth at that point.

The real issue is not how many people are getting super rich but how many people are doing worse because of it. Are more poor people being created? Are the rich taking the money out of anyones pockets or....

Is it simply that creeping socialism is creating a larger and larger tax burden for everyone? We make more money but are able to keep less of it. Thisw is not the fault of the rich and.... even if we soaked em until they no longer had incentive to produce.... We would still continue to pay more and more and more and more and more taxes no matter what our income bracket.

The rich aren't hurting me... the socialists are with they well ententioned and bloated programs... Is SS in trouble because of the rich?

lazs

Shuckins · « **Reply #79 on:** June 07, 2005, 12:17:22 PM »

If the super rich were running the Social Security program that sucker would be in GREAT financial shape.

oboe · « **Reply #80 on:** June 07, 2005, 02:47:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
what are you talking about? an invasion by a foreign power is gonna effect eveyone equally... homeless is homeless.

the bombs drop on everyone.

As for benifiet of a good road system vs cost... the rich as a person, is not getting anything more or less for his dollar than you are... as for his bussiness.... and everyone elses.... we all pay on a use fee basis... 34 cents or so of every gallon of gas goes toward maintaining roads.... more than enough.. along with regestration fees and truck fees... the more you use the roads the more you pay.

also... everyone benifiets from goods getting to market... everything you buy is cheaper with good roads. You are paying less of of a burden than the rich but getting the benifiet.

you benifet by good roads getting to retail stores in that the goods become cheaper to you... They did all the work and you get the benifiet. you get a lot of road for what you are paying. The rich and the corporations pay the lions share.

To be fair... the rich will allways get richer unless you set a cieling and then confiscate wealth at that point.

The real issue is not how many people are getting super rich but how many people are doing worse because of it. Are more poor people being created? Are the rich taking the money out of anyones pockets or....

Is it simply that creeping socialism is creating a larger and larger tax burden for everyone? We make more money but are able to keep less of it. Thisw is not the fault of the rich and.... even if we soaked em until they no longer had incentive to produce.... We would still continue to pay more and more and more and more and more taxes no matter what our income bracket.

The rich aren't hurting me... the socialists are with they well ententioned and bloated programs... Is SS in trouble because of the rich?

lazs

I suspect we aren't going to be able to come to agreement about this, because we are looking at the situation differently, and I don't think either of us will be able to budge. And I don't think its for lack of intelligence on either of our parts - its just the way we were made, or the way our experiences molded us.

You say if everyone lost their home due to an invasion, we've all been affected equally because we are all now homeless. I disagree - I think the guy whose $10 million dollar home has been destroyed has suffered a larger loss than the guy renting a mobile home in a trailer park. So I think there is no getting around the fact that we won't agree on what 'equal' is. I think I'm right and you think you're right.

Likewise, if you do not see that the wealthy are actually benefiting more from their tax dollar being spent on roads and other programs which benefit, encourage and protect commerce, I don't think there is any point in continuing. I think the statement

Quote

"many of the functions of the federal government aid and protect commerce in some way or other. And the wealthy derive a greater benefit from commerce than do the poor."

put my notion about as succinctly as I could. If you still don't see it, ask youself how did they become wealthy in the first place? Unless the wealth was inherited, odds are that it was built through commerce. So, while its true you gain a benefit from being able to use fine roads, the wealthy gain a benefit not only from themselves being able to use the same roads, but also from the rest of us being able to use fine roads. Don't think I can expound on it any better than that.

Makes sense to me, and that's why I don't have a problem expecting the wealthy to pay a higher share of taxes than the poor.

btw, the boys and I are halfway through Firefly and we all like it. How's "Combat"? Good as you remember?

Steve · « **Reply #81 on:** June 07, 2005, 03:30:17 PM »

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and that's why I don't have a problem expecting the wealthy to pay a higher share of taxes than the poor.

The top 40% of earners in the US pay 92% of all income tax. How much more can you ask of them?

oboe · « **Reply #82 on:** June 07, 2005, 03:40:55 PM »

Where'd you get that stat, Steve?

Raider179 · « **Reply #83 on:** June 07, 2005, 03:53:07 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Steve
The top 40% of earners in the US pay 92% of all income tax. How much more can you ask of them?

http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/01in01ts.xls

Top 50% pay 96.03% of federal taxes occurding to IRS in 2001.

Top 25% pay 82.9%...

Top 5% pay 53.25%...

Top 1% pay 33.89%...

Steve · « **Reply #84 on:** June 07, 2005, 05:29:00 PM »

Thanks Raider.

oboe, How much more can you ask of them?

oboe · « **Reply #85 on:** June 07, 2005, 06:23:38 PM »

Are you asking me to design my own tax code? What I think it should look like?

So far all I've done is explain why I believe its fair that the wealthy should pay a higher percentage of taxes than the poor, and you've produced statistics which seem to indicate that they do. Agreed?

My first quick answer would be to ask as much of them as before the Bush tax cuts. But I'll think harder on it. Right now, I gotta go out and mow my grass.

Steve · « **Reply #86 on:** June 07, 2005, 09:36:20 PM »

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wealthy should pay a higher percentage of taxes than the poor,

and I believe in a flat tax since it's the only fair way.

rpm · « **Reply #87 on:** June 07, 2005, 11:55:36 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raider179
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/01in01ts.xls

Top 50% pay 96.03% of federal taxes occurding to IRS in 2001.

Top 25% pay 82.9%...

Top 5% pay 53.25%...

Top 1% pay 33.89%...

That's 266.07%

Shamus · « **Reply #88 on:** June 08, 2005, 12:01:43 AM »

A flat tax might work if you include SS taxes, but talk of removing the cap causes screams from the "rich"

shamus

Gunslinger · « **Reply #89 on:** June 08, 2005, 12:15:35 AM »

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Originally posted by rpm
That's 266.07%

RPM I hope your joking....if not re-read the states. The ones on the left do not add together they are separate statistics.